Date: 0101-01-01T00:00:00+00:00

Jiddu Krishnamurti

The Future Is Now

Table Of Content

- Discussion With Buddhists, Varanasi - .....................................................................3

Chapter 1 1st Discussion ...............................................................................................3

Chapter 2 2nd Discussion ............................................................................................12

Chapter 3 3rd Discussion.............................................................................................22

- Varanasi 1985 - ..........................................................................................................31

Chapter 4 1st Public Talk ............................................................................................31

Chapter 5 1985 2nd Public Talk ..................................................................................40

Chapter 6 3rd Public Talk............................................................................................48

Chapter 7 Discussion With The Campers Varanasi ....................................................58

- Rishi Valley 1985 -.....................................................................................................75

Chapter 8 2nd Dialogue With Teachers ......................................................................75

Chapter 9 3rd Dialogue With Teachers .......................................................................86

- Madras 1986 - ............................................................................................................98

Chapter 10 2nd Public Talk .........................................................................................98

Chapter 11 3rd Public Talk........................................................................................104

- Longer, Unedited Versions -...................................................................................112

Chapter 4....................................................................................................................112

Chapter 5....................................................................................................................126

Chapter 6....................................................................................................................139

Chapter 7....................................................................................................................154

2

- Discussion With Buddhists, Varanasi -

Chapter 1 1st Discussion

With Buddhists Varanasi 7th November 1985

First Participant (P1): [The chief participant in these discussions with

Buddhists (P1) is Pandit Jagannath Upadhyaya.] So far as I have understood,
you say that life has no purpose or aim and therefore there is no path to tread.

Therefore each person is faced with every moment by itself. If the moment is
to be understood, then the same moment is the moment of action, knowledge
and desire. Is this understanding correct?

KRISHNAMURTI (K): If I may point out, we are not discussing what is
correct or not correct. Sir, this is a subject that requires a great deal of inquiry.

P1: If you say that this is not a question of correctness or otherwise, you
are creating a problem for the people who want to understand.

K: No. On the contrary, I am saying that Panditji and all of us, including
myself, are going to investigate. I don't say, `That is right, this is wrong', but
together we are going to go into it.

P1: How can there be a human being who does not decide what is correct
or incorrect, what is good or not good?

K: We will come to that. I don't say there is no goodness. Goodness may be
entirely different from your goodness and my goodness. So let us find out
which is really the good - not yours or mine, but that which is good...

P2: ...in itself.

K: Yes.

P1: You are introducing an uncertainty into one's way of looking at things or
one's philosophical outlook.

K: Yes, but if you start with certainty, you end up with uncertainty.

P1: This also sounds very paradoxical - that you start with certainty and
end up with uncertainty.

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K: Of course. This is daily life. So, sir, because you raised a question which implies time, thought, action, could we begin by first going into the question of
what is time? Not according to the Buddha, or to some scripture, but what is
time? He will interpret it one way, the scientists will say that it is a series of
small actions, thoughts and so on. Or you might say, well, time is death, time
is living, or thought is time. Right? So, could we, for the time being, put aside
what other people have said, including the Buddha, including what I have said
or haven't said - wipe all that out - and say, `Now, what is time?'

Is this the only problem we have in life - time - not only a series of events,
but being born, growing, dying, time as the past, future and present? We live in
time. The moment we hope, it is time - I hope to be, I hope to become, I hope
to become enlightened; all that implies time. Acquiring knowledge implies time,
and the whole of living from birth to death is a problem of time. Right, sir? Am I
making myself clear? So what is it that we call time?

P1: You have spoken about this many times, but I want to say that the
moment which is knowledge, action, as well as desire, is a moment in which
there is no time. K: Wait, wait. Can you divide this instant from the rest?

P1: In the instant of attention or observation, there is no time.

K: What do you mean, observation and attention? Sorry to be so analytical.

But if we are to understand each other we must be clear about the meaning of
these two words - attention and observation. What takes place actually when
you observe? - not theoretically. When you observe that tree, that bird, that
woman, that man, what takes place?

P2: In that moment of observation, if it is real observation...

K: Is it? I am asking. When he uses the word observation, what does he
mean by that? I may mean one thing, he may mean another, she may mean
yet another thing.

P2: But you are asking Panditji what he means by observation.

K: And what he means by attention... Sir, may I ask a question? Could we
start to discuss, to have a dialogue, a conversation on a word, which is really

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very, very good deliberation? You know the meaning of that word deliberate?

The word comes from libra which in Greek means balance, weigh. You have
the same thing in the Zodiac - Libra. And from libra comes the word liberate.

And also it comes from the word 'deliberare' which in Italian means `to sit
down, talk over, take counsel with each other, weigh together. It is not you
offering an opinion and I offering another opinion, but both of us taking counsel
together, both of us weighing because we want to find the truth of it. Not I will
find it and then tell you - that does not exist in that word deliberate. Sir, when
the Pope is elected in Rome, in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican, they
deliberate - the doors are locked, nobody can get out, they have their own
places for toilet, restaurant, food; everything is arranged for a fortnight or for
some days. Within those set days they must settle. That is called deliberation.

So could we start, both of us, as though we know nothing?

P3: It is difficult for Panditji.

K: It is not difficult. I know nothing; our knowledge is merely memory.

What's the point of it? I am saying knowledge may be the greatest danger in
the world; it may be the greatest hindrance. To further knowledge we are
adding, the scientists are adding. That which is added to is always limited.

P2: Of course. If it is complete, you cannot add to it.

K: Yes. Therefore your knowledge is always limited, and if you discuss from
that limitation, you end up in limitation.

P2: And the so-called certainty is that limitation.

K: Yes, limitation.

P1: We have heard quite a bit from you and understood certain things; but
if the understanding has to be at a deeper level, then someone like you has
the responsibility of making that known, since we are at different levels.

K: All right, all right. But the man says, K says, leave your moorings, let us
float together.

P1: How can we counsel together when we are at two different levels?

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K: I don't admit that. I don't admit that we are at two levels.

P1: We have a complaint against you that...

K:...that I am a poor surgeon!

P1:...physician, yes. Because there are all the difficulties and conflicts
outside. People like me who have the privilege of coming to you receive some
light, but the physician is not able to say how to cope with those things which
are outside and solve the difficulties there.

K: So you want to solve first the difficulties out there, and then approach the
problems in here. Is that it?

P1: No, I want to solve them both together.

K: I do not admit the division.

P1: Yes, I accept that.

K: The world is me, I am the world. Now, from there how do we solve the
problem?

P1: Let us say I don't make a difference between outer and inner things.

K: First make sure of that. Do you actually see that, or is it theoretical?

P1: For me it is theoretical.

K: Sir, first of all, theory to me has no value. Forgive me, sir. I see what is
happening in the world - war, nationalities, killing, all the appalling things that are happening - actually happening. I am not imagining it; I see it happening
under my nose. Now, who created it?

P1: Human beings.

K: Do you admit that we all of us have created that?

P2: Yes, of course.

K: All right. So, if all of us have created it, then we can change that. Now, in
what manner will you bring about the change? Sir, I met the other day in New

York, a scientist, a doctor who has become a philosopher. He said this is all
talk, the real question is: can the cells in the brain bring about a mutation in

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themselves - not through drugs, not through various genetic processes, but can the brain cells themselves say: This is wrong - change! Do you
understand, sir? Can the brain cells themselves, uninfluenced, undrugged, see
what they have created and say: This is wrong - mutate!

P1: But you distinguish the brain from the mind.

K: Yes, may be silly, but I have made a difference because the brain is the
very centre of our sensations.

P4: Sir, that was my question the day before yesterday also: Should we
wait for that mutation?

K: You can't. It will go on.

P4: Will it come automatically?

K: No

P4: So we should try for that.

K: What will you do, sir? You see that a mutation is necessary. Right?

P4: Yes, everyone agrees with that.

K: Now, what will change that? - in the cells, not just ideas. The very cells
of the brain contain all the memories of the past. Can those cells, without
pressure, without influence, without chemicals, say: That is the end of that; I
will change?

P2: No: If there is no influence, no pressure, it means it is taking place by
itself.

K: No. Listen to it. The brain cells hold all the memories, all the pressures,
all the education, all the experience, everything - it is the centre of knowledge.

Right?

P2: Yes, it is loaded.

K: Loaded with knowledge of two and a half million years. We have tried
everything - chemicals, torture, every form of experience to bring about a
change inside the skull; we have not succeeded. There is genetic engineering,

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there is every form of experiment being done to change this inside, they haven't succeeded. They haven't so far; they may in a thousand years. So I
say to myself, why does this brain depend on all this - chemicals, persuasion,
pleasure? Is it waiting to be released? I say, `No, sorry, that is another form of
escape.'

P2: Waiting for something else.

K: Yes. So, can the brain cells, with all the past memories, put an end to all
that now? That is my question. What do you say, sir?

P1: I have another question. I have to teach my students and I do it through
a logical process - rationally so many things are explained. At the same time I
realize the limitation of that, especially having come into contact with you - that this is all artificial, theoretical, very limited. Then, when we come to you, we
hear what is good, and we go from one fine point to another, but I find at the
end of it all that we are still nowhere near the truth. So it just means that
instead of going round in that circle of logic we go round in this, but it makes
no difference.

K: Yes, sir, these are all just explanations and we move from that logic to
this logic. So, do we see that logic has a limitation? Now, can I leave that logic
without going to another logic, because I see at the very beginning that logic
has limitation - whether it is superfine logic or plain common sense?

P1: No, the two cannot be compared because the other is entirely logical,
which we understand is limited, but here it is not just logic as we get bits of
insight, bits of light; but we keep moving around with these little bits. There is
no comprehension.

K: All right. If that is so - which I question - is it that you want complete
insight? Your question implies that. P1: We should be satisfied with what we
are getting, but we need that happiness which shapes thought. We get little
bits of insight, not the whole.

K: I am not talking of happiness; I am talking of insight. Will you listen to it?

I will present the whole, I will show you logically the whole. Will you listen - not 8
say yes, this is right, this is wrong? Sir, practically every writer, painter, scientist, poet, guru - they all have a limited insight. You and I come along and
say, `Look, this is limited, and I want the real, complete, full insight; not partial.'

Right?

P1: We need to understand this. What is full insight? Is it an experience?

K: No, I doubt if it is an experience. It is not an experience.

P2: Then it has to come from within.

K: No, you see, you are already stipulating what should happen.

P2: It cannot be anticipated.

K: You cannot lay down laws about it. You cannot say it is experience; it is
not.

P2: You were going to tell us how all this will be a whole.

K: Not all this; the parts do not make the whole. I am as damned logical as
any of you. I am just saying, you are approaching it wrongly. That is my point;
don't say it is an experience; it is based on knowledge. What is based on
knowledge is invention, not creation.

P6: Sir, he is not saying it is experience based on knowledge, but it has to
be real, proved.

K: It is not that I experience something; it is real. I don't understand your
difficulty. Somebody comes along and tells me a story. I listen with rapt
attention. It is a beautiful story, lovely language, style; I am enraptured by it, I listen to the story, and it goes on and on day after day, and I am consumed by
the story. So the story ends by saying, Ìt stops here.'

P5: The story doesn't end for us; the problem continues.

K: You are my friend. I want to tell you that people have limited insight,
which is obvious. Your friend here says, I will tell you in what manner you can
have the whole insight. Will you listen to him? Don't argue,just listen. You give
rice to the beggar; he didn't expect anything from you, but you give it. In the
same way, he is giving me a gift and he says, `Take it, don't ask me why you

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are being given it, who is giving it; just take it.' So I am telling you, insight is not dependent on the intellect, it is not dependent on knowledge, it is not
dependent on any form of remembrance, and it is not dependent on time.

Enlightenment is not dependent on time. Time, memory, remembrance, cause

- they don't exist; then you have insight, complete insight. Sir, like two ships
passing each other at night, one says to the other, `This is it,' and passes on.

What will you do?

P4: Sir, does it come through gradual practice or is it instantaneous?

K: Practice means memory, time.

P4: So it can only be instantaneous.

K: Oh no, no, sir, just listen. He tells me this and he disappears. He has left
with me a tremendous jewel and I am watching the beauty of it. I am not
saying, why did he give it to me, who is he, and so on. He has given it to me
and he said, `Take it, my friend, live with it, and if you don't want it, throw it
away.' And I never see him again. I am enthralled by the jewel and that jewel
begins to reveal things I have never seen before, and that jewel says, `Hold
me more closely, you will see much more.' But I say, Ì have got my wife, my
children, my college, my university, my job; I can't do this.' So you put it on the table come back in the evening and you look at it. But the jewel is fading, so
you have to hold it, you have to cherish it, love it, watch it, care for it.

I am not trying to convince anybody of anything. We see that our
knowledge is very limited, and knowledge may be the very danger, it may be
the poison in all of us.

Sir, I met the other day, just before I came to India, three computer experts

- the very, very latest. They are going deeper into artificial intelligence. And
artificial intelligence can do most of the things that human beings can do -
argue, have tremendous knowledge, much more than any of us. It will include

British knowledge, European knowledge, French knowledge, Russian
knowledge, all the Upanishads, all the Gitas, all the Bibles, the Korans,
everything, and it will act - it will tell you what to eat, what not to eat, when to 10
go to bed for your health, when you cannot have sex, everything you can do; it has already begun. And what is going to happen to the human brain if that
machine can do everything I can do, except have sex or look at the stars?

What is the point of the human being? And the entertainment industry -
football, tennis, all these things - here too, unfortunately, it is very strong. So if man is caught in all the entertainment, which includes all the religious
entertainment, then where is man? Sir, this is a very serious question; it is not
just casual talk.

P2: This question would not arise if there is mutation in the brain which is
then far ahead of the present brain, because the present brain is memory and
the machine has a far better memory.

K: A little chip like that holds 600 million words.

P2: All the libraries of the world will be in the machine.

K: They have got it, haven't they? Therefore, why should I go to the library,
why should I listen to all this stuff? Therefore, entertainment. P2: Or mutate.

K: That's it. This is the question I have been asking.

P2: So we are back to the question.

P1: Does meditation have a place in all this?

K: Yes. Sir, is there a meditation which is not contrived, which is not
deliberate, which does not say practise, practise, practise, which had nothing
to do with all this? Because, that way I practise to become a rich man, I have a
deliberate purpose. So it can't be meditation as we do it now. So, perhaps
there is a meditation which has nothing to do with all this - and I say there is.

P2: Shall we stop here?

K: Yes, we stop - like the story.

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Chapter 2 2nd Discussion

With Buddhists Varanasi 9th November 1985

Krishnamurti (K): Is there something sacred, something long-lasting, and
not conditioned by commerce? Is there something in India, in this part of the
world?

First Participant (P1: There is certainly something in this country which is
not influenced by external factors.

K: That was not my question. Is there something here which does not exist
anywhere else - not influenced, not corrupted, not made ugly by all the circus
that goes on in the name of religion? Is there something already here, for
which - if it exists - one has to give one's whole mind and heart - to preserve?

You understand, sir?

P1: I cannot say, because in some sense I have not experienced this in a
tangible way; nor can I say whether other people have. But my study of
ancient texts gives me a certain certitude that there is something which can be
experienced in a clear way.

K: I'm asking, Panditji, if there is something enduring, which is not bound by
time, evolution and all that. It must be very, very sacred. And if it exists, then
one must give one's life to it, protect it, give vitality to it - not by doctrines and knowledge, but by the feeling of it, the depth of it, the beauty of it, the
enormous strength of it. That's what I'm asking.

P1: We desire to find such a thing, but have not been able to do so. And
our experience is such that we find ourselves tangled in many theories, in
many traditions, many systems. Occasionally we hear a clear voice that
speaks about this in a compelling way. That voice comes from you, but we are
in some way unable to reach it. The whole phenomenon is like some huge fair
with a lot different chaotic voices offering solutions.

K: You're not answering my question: is there or is there not? Not tradition,
not a kind of historical process of ancient culture diminishing, being destroyed

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by commercialism, but the great impetus which was set going by some power, some intelligence? That power, that intelligence - does it exist now? I'm
repeating the same thing in different words.

P2: If I have to answer your question, then I would say that what you're
talking about - that thing - is life.

K: I'm asking a very simple question; don't complicate it. India exploded
over the whole of Asia, like Greece exploded over the whole of Western
culture. I'm not talking about India geographically, but as part of the world. It
spread like wildfire. And it had the tremendous energy of something original
something enormous; it had the power to move things. Does that exist here, or
is it all in abeyance? Does it exist at all now?

P3: I don't know, sir. I think it exists.

K: Why? Why do you think that?

P3: Sometimes it appears, but not usually.

K: It's like a breath of fresh air. If that air is constantly flowing, it's always
fresh.

P3: It is always flowing, it is always fresh, but the contact with persons is
not always there.

K: I understand that, but it's not good enough. P2: Why do you want to
connect it geographically with this part of the world?

K: Geographically - I'll tell you. All ancients, as far as I understand,
worshipped mountains. The gods came from there for the Greeks; and for the
ancient Sumerians, again the mountains, the sense of something holy there.

Then you come to the Himalayas - it's all in the Dakshinamurti Stotra. The
monks lived there, meditated there. Is it there still, or is it being
commercialized?

P3: It is there, it cannot be commercialized. The commercialization is
something else.

K: Is it there?

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P3: Yes.

K: Why do you say yes?

P3: Because it is there. It is...

K: Sir, you are there, physically. I can theorize how the body is constructed,
but you are still there - to touch, to feel, to see, to actually see you are sitting there. Is there such a thing?

P3: Yes, it is there, actually there. It is there.

K: It is no good telling me, Ìt is there, it is there.' If it is there, why has this part of the world been so corrupt, so appalling? You don't realize what I'm
saying.

P3: From the beginning I am saying that it is there, but the relationship, the
contact, with the masses...

K: I'm not talking about the masses. It's you, you...

P3: With the persons...

K: With you...

P3: It is diminished. K: Why has it decreased, why has it diminished, why
has it become something small?

P3: People are not interested.

K: So what does that mean?

P3: They're more interested in commerce.

K: Yes. So it's gone. That doesn't matter. Let's leave that question. Or is it
this tremendous self-interest - self-interest in the form of knowledge, in the
form of Buddhism, Hinduism? It is all basically self-interest. And that self-
interest is increasing tremendously in the world, and that is the door which
shuts the other out. You understand?

Sir, some time ago three very clever people - they were scientists - came to

Brockwood, and we were talking. They are trying to find artificial intelligence. If they can find that, then we are all gone. Your knowledge, your Vedas, your

14

Upanishads and your Geeta - everything is gone, because the machine can repeat it much better than you and I can ever do.

P1: The question which you just posed presents a wonderful opportunity to
ask a counter question. And the counter question is: What you say appeals to
us, but how are we, in today's society, going to find it, experience it, and share
it?

K: You can't experience it. To experience it there must be an experiencer.

He has had a thousand experiences; he adds another to it - that's my whole
point. It's not an experience; it's not something that I and you experience. It's
there like electricity. I can admire it, worship it, but it's there.

P1: Human beings have only one gift, that is the ability to experience, and
you are snatching that away. After that what are we to hold on to?

K: I'm not snatching anything away, but I see that experience is a very
small affair. I experience; then what? Experience gives you knowledge of how
to climb a mountain. We depend on experience, but that thing can't be
experienced. You can't experience water; it is there. I can experience sex; I
can experience something hitting me; I can experience somebody praising me.

P4: Water is there, but I only know it through experience of it.

K: You only know because you perceive it. You know the quality of it; you
float on it; but all that is part of your knowledge of it.

P2: But if I had no knowledge, I wouldn't have any experience.

K: What you call experience is based on sensory perception. And our
sensory perceptions are partial, never complete. Now, to observe with all your
senses alert - that's not an experience. Sir, I look at that piece of cloth and say it's red, because I've been conditioned to call it red. If you'd been conditioned
to call it purple, you'd call it purple. The brain is always conditioned by our
experience, by our sensory responses - how to argue, how to deny and all the
rest of it.

If I happen to be a Catholic my whole attitude towards religion is Jesus,

Virgin Mary and all the rest of it. You are a Hindu or Buddhist - sorry, I'm not

15
comparing - and everything is from that conditioning. Therefore, when you say experience, or you must learn this or do that, it's all from a brain which has
become small, conditioned.

P3: We again come to that point we discussed. We understand about
conditioning, self-interest, and so on. There is the possibility of moving away,
and then we just stop there.

K: Why, sir?

P3: Or should I say that the moving away is not absolutely possible? K: Or
remain where you are - you understand? - and not move away. Remain where
you are and see what happens. That is, sir, you never stay whole, abide with
what is.

P3: Yes, that is obvious.

K: Wait, sir, wait, wait. We never stay there. We're always moving, moving.

Right? I am this, I will be that - it's a movement away from what is.

P3: Either we stay where it is, or stay out of the movement.

K: What is the movement?

P3: Change, force...

K: Then we have to understand what is time, the movement in time.

P3: Yes.

K: We have to enquire what is time - that which we live daily: time as past,
time as present, time as future. So what is time? You understand, sir? It
requires a lot of time to learn Sanskrit, to enquire into the earliest doctrines,
various literatures - what the ancients said, what the Buddha said, what

Nagarjuna said, and so on. To learn a skill requires time, to cover a distance
from here to there requires time. Everything we do requires time. Then we
must inquire: What is time?

P4: Time is the means of achieving.

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K: Yes, success, failure, acquiring a skill, learning a language, writing a letter, covering a distance from here to there and so on. To us that is time.

What is time?

P4: It's a movement in the mind, a subtle, incessant movement of the mind.

K: Then what is the brain? What is the mind? Don't invent. Look at it. What
is the brain? P5: It's very difficult to make out the difference between the brain
and the mind. The involuntary, almost incessant way of thoughts pouring into
unknown stimuli, is what accounts for time.

K: No, sir, you are not listening. There's time by the clock: to cover a
distance, to learn a language, it requires time. And also we have lived on this
earth for two and a half million years. There's been a tremendous evolution,
which is time. What do you mean by time?

P4: All that you've just mentioned is physical time. But the real problem of
time seems to hinge on how it works within the psyche. There is something
unresolved that we want to resolve.

K: Sir, before we talk of the mind, if I may humbly suggest, what is the
brain?

P4: The brain is possibly the physical base or biological structure of the
mind.

K: The brain is the centre of all our action, centre of all our sensory
responses; it is the centre of all thinking, inside the skull. What is the quality of the brain that is asking the question: what is time? How do you receive the
question?

P1: We have understood after discussing with you that it is only total
attention that will bring about a total transformation. That's where the problem
begins.

K: Would you mind if I say something? Time is the past, time is now; and
the now is controlled by the past, shaped by the past. And the future is a
modification of the present. I'm putting it dreadfully simply. So the future is

17
now. Therefore the question is: If all time is contained in the now, all time -
past, present and future - then what do we mean by change?

P1: The word `change' does not have any meaning. K: No, wait. The now
contains all time. If that's a fact - a fact, not a theory, not some kind of
speculative conclusion - that all time is contained in the now, this is the future, this is the present. There is no movement towards or for. There is no
movement. Movement implies time, right? So there is no change. Change
becomes idiotic. Then I am what I am: I am greedy, and I say yes.

P1: There is a wide difference between you and us; we may be saying the
same thing.

K: Oh, no, no. I don't admit anything of the kind.

P1: You are saying that all time is now. I also say the same thing: All time is
now. But my saying and your saying are two totally different things.

K: Why?

P4: Because he says it from logic and speculation.

K: That's it. That means time is operating.

P1: How can we remove this difficulty?

P4: Panditji, answer the question: How can we break this stream in which
we flow?

P1: The stream is broken through logic. There is a big gulf between you
and us. I understand what you're saying speculatively. The problem is: How do
we remove this gulf? Because, we have reached a certain meeting, in the
sense of understanding.

K: I'll tell you. No, I'll show you. Please, I'm not a guru. Is this a fact? - time is now; all time is contained in now, at this second. Really, this is a most
extraordinary thing: to see that the future, the past, is now. Is that a fact - not an idea of the fact?

P4: There are two things: perceiving and conceiving. Now I am conceiving,
not perceiving. K: So what's the point of it?

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P4: No point, but I would like to go on from here - from conception to perception.

K: Conception is not a fact.

P4: Conception is not a fact; perception is a fact, and we are all caught up
in conception, in time. The simultaneity of conception and time has to be
broken. One has to get away from...

K: Who gets away?

P4: I mean, for perception to operate.

K: The very word òperation' means time.

P6: Just a minute. If I may come in at this point and say one thing: If all time
is in the now, then there is nothing else.

K: Which means what?

P6: That you stop looking.

K: Now you're already preconceiving.

P6: I'm not preconceiving. If all time is now...

K: That may be the most extraordinary thing, if you go into it. That may be
the essence of compassion. That may be the essence of amazing, undefinable
intelligence. You can't say all time is now if it isn't a reality. The other things don't matter. I don't know if I am making myself clear.

Sir, if all time is contained in the now, there's no movement. What I do now,

I'll do tomorrow. So tomorrow is now. What am I to do if the future - tomorrow -
is now? I'm greedy, envious, and I'll be envious tomorrow. Is there a possibility
of ending that greed instantly?

P1: That is very difficult.

K: It's not difficult at all. I see that if I am greedy today, envious today,
tomorrow I'll be greedy and envious unless something happens now. It is very
important that something happen now. So can I change, mutate, now?

19

There is a movement which is not of time if there is a radical mutation. You understand, sir? Two and a half million years ago we were barbarous. We are
still barbarous; wanting power, position, killing each other, envious, comparing,
all that. You've put me this challenge: All time is now. I have no escape points,

I've no gates through which I can escape from this central fact. I say to myself:

My god, if I don't change now, tomorrow will be the same, or a thousand
tomorrows. So, is it possible for me to totally mutate now? I say yes.

P4: Can you tell us how?

K: Not how, sir. The moment you say how, you are already in the process
of time: I tell you this, this, this, and you say I will do this, this to get to that.

You can't get it because you are what you are now.

P6: That means that in the listening to that statement of yours, Àll time is
now`, there is a quality of acquisitiveness.

K: Of course.

P6: So the listening has to be purified.

K: So, sir, there is no knowledge, there is no meditation, there is no
discipline. Everything stops. May I put the question differently? Suppose for
instance I know I'm going to die. There is a time interval between now and
death: that is, I will die on the first of January. (I'm not actually going to die on the first of January!) Doctors have told me say, that I have terminal cancer and

I can't survive the first of January. So I've got a couple of months to die. If all time is now, I am dying. So I don't have time; I don't want time. So death is
now. Can the human brain live with death all the time? You understand? I'm
going to die - that's certain. And I say, For god's sake wait a minute. But if I
realize the fact that all time is now - that means death and living are together;
they are never separate. So knowledge is dividing me - knowledge that I'm
going to die at the end of January - and I get frightened; I say, Please, please,
wait, wait, wait, I've got to leave a will, I've got to do this, I've to do that. But if I live with death, I'm doing it all the time; that is, I draw up my will. I'm dying

20
now, that means I'm living. I'm living and death is next door; there's no divorce or separation between living and dying.

Can you do this, sir, or is it impossible? That means death says, `You can't
take anything with you.' Your knowledge, your books, your wife and children,
your money, your character, your vanity, all that you've built up for yourself -
everything goes at the end with death. You may say there's a possibility you'll
reincarnate. But I'm asking you: Can you live now without the least attachment
to anything? Why postpone this - which is attachment - until the sickbed? Be
free of attachment now.

P6: May we sit silently with you?

(K assents)

P1: You had started the discussion with the question: What is this thing,
and, is there this thing in this country? Is this that thing?

K: (nods, then after a long silence) See, it's not difficult. It's so simple. I
don't want personally any reputation; I don't want a sense of Ì know and you
don't know.' By nature I'm a very humble man, very shy, respectful, gentle. So
what do you want? You understand, sir? If you can start at that level... Right.

That's enough. Let me tell you a joke.

There were three holy men in the Himalayas - of course, it has to be the

Himalayas! Ten years pass, one of them says: Òh, what a lovely evening this
is!' Another ten years pass and the other man says, Ì hope it will rain.' Another
ten years pass and the third man says: Ì wish you two would be quiet.'

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Chapter 3 3rd Discussion

With Buddhists Varanasi 11th November 1985

KRISHNAMURTI (K): Sir, I would like to ask several questions. Is there a
line, a demarcation, where self-interest ends and where a state which is not
self-interest begins? We all have self-interest; it is in knowledge, in language,
in science, in every part of our life. In every way of our life there is self-interest, and that has created havoc. And how far does it extend? And where do we
draw the line and say: here it is necessary, there it is not necessary at all? - in daily life; not in science, in mathematics, in knowledge. I am talking factually,
not theoretically.

First Participant (P1: This question is very difficult to answer if you lay down
certain conditions, like the difficulties we meet with in society; but if you do not lay down conditions, then I shall try to answer.

K: All right, I remove the conditions. Not remove; life is this. I am not laying
down the condition, I am not laying down the law, the way you should think,
but life shows me that in every work in every part of the world self-interest is
dominant. We play with religion, we play with K as a plaything, we play with all
kinds of things, but the thread of self-interest is very, very strong, and I ask
myself, where does it begin, and, is there an end to it. Where does it start,
where does it end, or is there no end at all? God is my self-interest, so are
ceremonies, scholarship, science. The man in the corner who sells tobacco
there, is full of self-interest. P1: There is some book learning that underlies my
answer, but I will try to answer from my experiences as an individual human
being.

K: Yes, as a human being - even from your books, from your studies, you
must have, they must all have, asked this question in different ways.

P1: When I try to understand myself, look at myself as I am, factually, then I
put myself into certain categories. When I try to discover myself in action, in
my relationship to other people, then I find an element of self-interest, and I

22
can, with some effort, try to be free of this self-interest, and I do unburden myself to a certain extent.

K: But that is also self-interest.

P1: When I try to establish my existence, my being, then my actions
become more self-centred, and to the extent to which I unburden myself, the
self-interest decreases.

K: No, you are missing my point. I want to make it very, very simple. The
more simply we think, the better the action, the better the way of looking at
things. From childhood the problems begin - I have to go to school, I have to
read and learn, I have to learn mathematics. The whole of life becomes a
problem because, basically, I meet life as a problem. In the English language a
problem means something thrown at you. Problema comes from Greek; it
means something hurled at you and you have to reply to it. So, from childhood,
my brain is conditioned to live with problems and solve problems - and those
problems can never be solved. I keep this going, problem after problem; all my
life becomes a problem, living becomes a problem. And I say, I don't want to
live that way, it is wrong to live that way. So I am asking myself, does self-
interest create the problem, or can the mind, brain, be free of problems and
therefore tackle problems? You see the difference? I don't know if I am making
myself clear. It is a fact that I have to go to school, learn, read, and so on. My
brain gradually gets conditioned to living with problems, the brain becomes the
problem - everything becomes a problem. So I come to you to solve the
problem the brain has, which may be linked with self-interest.

P1: Creating or receiving problems and trying to solve them has become a
rule of life for us, and this way of doing things nurtures my being.

K: Therefore your being is a problem. But you are missing my point. Your
being is the identity with the country, with the literature, with the language, with the gods; you are identified, therefore you have taken root in a place, therefore
that becomes the being. There is no separate being apart from that - no
spiritual being, god-being - I don't believe in all that; I am entirely sceptical. So I say to myself, why have I, or you, made life, which is meant to be lived like a

23
tree growing beautifully, into this? I can't live that way, I won't live that way.

Whether god exists, etc. - I am totally indifferent to all that, I totally discard all that, and I say to myself, I won't live the way you are living; I won't. I will go
away to the mountains rather than live that way. You have destroyed living,
you have destroyed living by knowledge, by science, by computers - you have
destroyed my living. I can retire into the mountains, but that makes no
meaning.

P1: Why are you so keen to safeguard what you call living? Suppose I
betray it, I break it, what difference does it make?

K: I am not saying I want to live; that is not my point. I say, why do I live this
way? I am not safeguarding it by asking this. Why have I to go through all this
appalling process? Sex becomes a problem, eating becomes a problem,
everything is a problem. And I don't want to have problems, which does not
mean that I deny life. I don't want problems, therefore I meet problems.

Because my brain won't work in problems, I can meet all problems.

P1: As I understand it, you are saying that problems should not enter,
problems should not constrain your being. You don't want to deny life, but you
want not to be affected by problems.

K: No, no. You have thoroughly misunderstood me. I am saying, from birth
to death life is treated like a problem: school, college, university, then job,
marriage, sex, children - one of them is naughty or a genius and I utilize or
exploit that boy and keep going all my life. Death then becomes a problem.

Then I say, is there a living further, reincarnation and all that? You see what
humanity has done? This is life. Why can't my brain be simple enough, free
enough to say this is a problem and solve it? That is, the brain is free to solve
it, not add another problem to it.

P2: If I may say so, sir, the problem does not come from outside; the
problem arises in this brain, which feeds on this problem, which creates this
problem. Why doesn't it immediately destroy it at that very instant?

K: Because it has not solved any problem.

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P1: Does the brain have that capacity of ending?

K: Yes, but I must distinguish, make clear one point. The brain is the centre
of all our nerves, all our sensations, all our reactions, our knowledge, our
relationships, quarrels and all that. It is the centre of our consciousness, and
that consciousness we treat as mine - my consciousness. I say, it is not mine;
it is not personalized as K. And it is not yours because every human being on
earth goes through this torture - pain, sorrow, pleasure, sex, fear, anxiety,
uncertainty, hoping for something better and so on; that is our consciousness.

So that consciousness is not yours; it is human. It is humanity. I am humanity -
not all of you plus me. I am humanity.

P3: It seems to me that we know of two kinds of action: one which is
thought out by the brain, calculated, and which therefore invariably contains
the seed of self-interest, is motivated by self-interest. I don't think the brain is capable of doing anything that does not contain in it the seed of self-interest,
because it is the instrument meant for that purpose. But there is also
spontaneous action which we experience occasionally, which is born just out
of love, not as a product of thinking. And because man does not know what to
do with this kind of action, because there is nothing he can do about that kind
of action, he has cultivated the other - he has cultivated what his brain can do
well, what it can calculate, what it can achieve, and the whole world is
therefore filled with such activity, such action. And that has become our life.

And the other, which is the vital, is occasional.

K: I am not coming to that for the moment. The mind is different from the
brain - totally dissociated - has no relationship whatsoever. Love has no
relationship with self-interest. Don't bring in love for the moment. The fact is
that love may exist. We may have sympathy, empathy, affection, pity - but that
is not love, so I leave that aside. That's all for the moment. Love and self-
interest cannot exist together. Problems and love cannot exist together.

Therefore problems have no meaning if the other exists. If the other is,
problems are not.

25

P3: I am not sure if they cannot co-exist. They are independent; but I think even a person who has self-interest and who has problems, occasionally acts
without the interference of the brain - out of love. So I would not say that the
existence of the brain denies love completely. K: Sir, I say it is like having
occasionally a bad egg. I want a good egg every day - not occasionally. So I
am asking you all, where does self-interest begin and where does it end? Is
there an end to self-interest? Or is all action born out of self-interest? Don't tell me, òccasionally; I am not interested in that. Occasionally I look out of the
window and that window is very narrow; I am in a prison.

So please follow me for a minute. There is a tremendous order in the
universe. A black hole is a part of that order. Wherever man enters he creates
disorder. So I say, can I, as a human being who is the rest of humanity, create
order in myself first? Order means no self-interest.

P4: Sir, the problem is, it is not easy to deny on the basis of a common
consciousness the nucleus that comes to shape itself as the limited self, the
acquisitive self, for which all the problems are real, not imaginary. I mean I
have disease, I have death - in what way could these be considered as no
problems?

K: Are you saying that the self is the problem? Why do we make it a
problem? Why do you say the self is the problem? perhaps we make it into a
problem and then say, how am I to get out of it? We don't look at the problem.

We don't say, the self is the problem, let me understand it, let me look at this
jewel without condemning it. The very condemnation is the problem. Do you
follow what I mean? Therefore, I won't condemn it, I won't suppress it, I won't
deny it, I won't transcend it; but let me first look at it.

P4: Sir, consider a person who has a thorn in his body and is feeling pain.

The pain of the thorn is similar to the constraints and problems impinging upon
the self.

K: No, sir. If I have a thorn in my foot, I look at it first, I know the pain. I ask myself, why did I tread on it, why wasn't I aware of it? What is wrong with my
observation, my eyes? Why didn't I see where I was going? I know if I saw it, I

26
wouldn't touch it. Therefore I didn't see it. When the pain is there, then I act. I didn't see the thing that was in front of my foot. So my observation is at fault.

So I say, what happened to my brain which didn't see that? Probably it was
thinking of something else. Why was it thinking of something else when I am
on the path? So you see, sir?

P5: But in the case of psychological problems, the observer and what is
observed are hopelessly entangled.

K: No. We are going off to something else. Let us stick to one problem, one
issue. Where does self-interest begin and where does it end, and is there an
ending to it at all? And if it ends, what is that state?

P6: May I hazard an answer? Probably, self-interest begins with the self
itself and the self comes with the body.

K: I am not sure.

P6: They go together. The idea of Ì'-ness and my coming into being, they
go together.

K: You say so, but I don't say so.

P6: To my mind the very notion of self begins with the coming into being of
this body, and the self and self-interest go together. Self-interest can only end
when the self ends. And a part of the self remains so long as the body
remains. So, in an ultimate sense, it can only end with death. Short of that, we
can only refine self-interest with the gradual perceiving of it, but we cannot
wholly deny it so long as the body exists. That is how I see it.

K: I understand. They are discovering in science that when the baby is born
and suckling, it feels secure and it begins to learn who are the friends of the
mother, who treat her differently, who are against her; it begins to feel all this
because the mother feels it. It comes through the mother - who is friendly, who
is not friendly. The baby begins to rely on the mother. So there it begins. It felt very safe in the womb, and suddenly, put out in the world it begins to realize
that the mother is the only safety. There it begins to be secure. And that's our
life. And I question whether there is security at all.

27

P2: Sir, in the Mexican earthquake, babies were found alive eleven days after being buried completely under the earth and there was no damage to the
newborn ones. And the Mexican ambassador was telling me, the child, when it
was taken out of that dark place, behaved exactly as it does when it comes out
of the womb.

K: It was like being still in the womb.

P3: Sir, the instinct of self-preservation is there in the animal too, but when
it evolved into man, he started creating problems. The animal does not create
problems. If we believe what the scientists say, that man evolved from the
animal, then he has all the instincts which the animal has. The essential
difference is that man has in addition the ability to think, and this ability to think has also created all those problems. And what you are asking is, can we use
this ability not to create problems but to do something entirely different?

K: Yes, sir that's right.

P7: The brain is the source of all problems. It has created the self and also
all the problems. You suggest that the brain can end the problems. Then what
is the difference between that brain which has ended and the mind?

P6: You said that the brain is the source of problems and out of the brain
comes the ending of problems. With that ending, the brain that remains thinks,
perceives, receives intimations. What is the actual difference between that
brain and the mind? K: I understand, I understand. Just a minute. See, you are
asking a question that involves death. Before I can answer that question I must
answer what death is. There is an Italian proverb that says: All the world is
going to die, perhaps even I too! Do you see the joke of it? So, what is death?

We know what is birth, mother, father, all the rest of it, and the baby is born
and goes through this extraordinary tragedy. It is a tragedy; it is not something
happy, joyous, free. It is a bigger tragedy than any Shakespeare ever wrote.

So I know what is birth. Now, what is death? I am asking this; you tell me.

P1: When we were discussing time the other day, you spoke of ànow' in
which was all time, both living and death. The brain, having the capacity to see

28
the flow of living, also has the capacity to reveal that ending which is death.

That is the answer.

K: I said, living is attachment, pain, fear, pleasure, anxiety, uncertainty, the
whole bag, and death is out there, far away. I keep a careful distance. I have
got property, books, jewels; that is my life. I keep it here and death is there. I
say, bring the two together, not tomorrow, but now - which means end all this
now. Because that's what death is going to say. Death says you can't take
anything with you; so invite death - not suicide - invite death and live with it.

Death is now, not tomorrow.

P1: There is something lacking in this. I may be able to invite death now
and the brain may be still for a time, but the whole thing comes back again;
then the problem of life comes back.

K: No, no. I am attached to him, he is a friend of mine, I have lived with him,
we walked together, We played together, he is my companion, and I am
attached to him. Death says to me, You can't take him with you. So death tells
me, Free yourself now, not ten years later. And I say, Quite right, I will be free
of him. Though I am still his friend, I am not dependent on him at all. Because,

I can't take him with me. What's wrong with that? You are not arguing against
that?

P5: Which means, sir, you have to end all gratification...

K: No, I am not saying that. I said, attachment.

P5: All attachment...

K: That's all.

P8: Sir, is it possible to end that so long as the two bodies exist?

K: Oh, yes, sir. Our bodies are not tied together; they are two separate
bodies. Psychologically I take him as a friend and get slowly attached to him
inwardly. I am not attached to him outwardly because he goes one way and I
go another - he drinks, I don't, and so on. But still he is a friend of mine. And
death comes and says you can't take him with you. That is a fact. So I say, All
right, I will be detached now.

29

P3: Sir, isn't it that the problem comes not because you get pleasure from your friend or your wife, but because you begin to use that pleasure as a
fulfilment for yourself, and therefore you want a continuity of that and you want
to possess that person?

K: Yes. Therefore, what is relationship? I won't go into it, we have no time.

You see, sir, you are not meeting my point. I asked you where self-interest
begins and ends. Is ending more important than anything else? - ending? And
what is then that state in which there is no self-interest at all? Is it death? -
which means an ending. Death means ending - ending everything. So it says,

`Be intelligent, old boy, live together with death.' P3: Which means die but
keep the body. The other death is coming anyway.

K: Body? Give it to the birds or throw it into the river. But psychologically,
this tremendous structure I have built I can't take with me.

P3: Is it an instinct, sir? Is it an inheritance through the genes?

K: Yes, probably. But animals don't think this way; I have watched several
animals.

P3: No, therefore I am not sure if it is an instinct.

K: That's all I am saying. Don't reduce it to an instinct, sir.

P8: What was the joke you were going to tell us?

K: A man dies and meets his friend in heaven. They talk and he says, Ìf I
am dead, why do I feel so awful?'

30

- Varanasi 1985 -

Chapter 4 1st Public Talk

In Varanasi 18th November 1985

I WONDER WHY you are all here. Why have we all gathered here on the
banks of the Ganga? If one asked that question seriously, what would be your
answer? Is it merely that you have heard this man talk several times before,
therefore you say, let's go and hear him? What is the relationship of what he
says to what you do? Are they two separate things? - you just listen to what he
has to say and carry on with your daily life? Have you understood our
question?

We two, like two old friends sitting under a tree, are going to talk over
together not some abstract, theoretical problems, but our daily life which is far
more important. We have got so many problems: how to meditate, which guru
to follow - if you are a follower - what kind of practice you should do, what kind
of daily activity you should go through, and so on. And also, what is our
relationship to nature - to all the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the plains and the valleys? What is our relationship to a flower, to a bird that passes by? And,
what is our relationship with each other - not with the speaker but with each
other - with your wife, with your husband, with your children, with the
environment, with your neighbour, your community, the government, and so
on? What is our relationship to all this? Or are we just isolated, self-concerned,
intensely interested in our own way of life?

We are asking all these questions as true friends, not as a guru. The
speaker has no intention whatsoever to impress you, to tell you what to do or
to help you. Please bear this in mind right through the talks. He has no
intention whatsoever to help you. I will tell you why, the reason, the logic of it.

You have had a great many gurus, thousands of them, a great many helpers -

Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, every kind of leader - not only political, but so-
called religious. You have had leaders of the major kind and the minor. And
where are you at the end of this long evolution?

31

We are supposed to have lived on this earth for a million years, and during that long evolution we have remained barbarians. We may be cleaner, quicker
at communication, have better hygiene, transportation and so on, but morally,
ethically and - if I may use that word - spiritually, we are still barbarians. We kill each other not only in war, but also by words, by gestures. We are very
competitive. We are very ambitious. Each is concerned with himself. Self-
interest is the dominant note in our life - concern with our own well-being,
security, possessions, power, and so on. Aren't we concerned with ourselves -
spiritually, religiously, in business? Right through the world we are all
concerned with ourselves. That means isolating ourselves from the rest of
humanity. That is a fact; we are not exaggerating. We are not saying
something that is not true.

Wherever you go - the speaker has been all over the world and still goes
round - what is happening? Increase in armaments, violence, fanaticism and
the great, deep sense of insecurity, uncertainty and separateness - you and I -
is a common note of mankind. Please, we are facing facts, not theories, not
some kind of distant theoretical, philosophical statements. We are looking at
facts. Not my facts as opposed to your facts but facts. Every country in the
world, as you must all know, is gathering armaments - every country, however
poor, however rich. Right? Look at your own country - the immense poverty,
disorder, corruption, you all know that, and the gathering of armaments. It
used to be a club to kill another, now you can vaporize mankind by the million
with one atom bomb or neutron bomb. An immense revolution is going on, of
which we know very little. The technological process is so rapid, that overnight
there is something new. But ethically we are what we have been for a million
years. You understand the contrast? Technologically we have the computer
which will out-think man, which can invent new meditations, new gods, new
theories. And man - that is, you and I - what is going to happen to our brains?

The computer can do almost anything that human beings can, except, of
course, have sex or look at the new moon. This is not some theory; it is
happening now. So, what is going to happen to us as human beings?

32

We want entertainment. Probably this is part of your idea of entertainment, coming here, sitting listening and agreeing or disagreeing, and going back
home to carry on with your life; it's a part of entertainment, as going to church,
the temple, the mosque, or football or cricket in this country. Please, this is not an entertainment. You and I, the speaker, must think together, not just sit
quietly and absorb some strange atmosphere, some punya; sorry, it is not like
that at all.

We are going to think together sanely, logically, look at the same thing
together. Not how you look and I look, but together observe our daily life,
which is far more important than anything else - observe it every minute of our
day. So first we are going to think together, not merely listen, agree or
disagree, which is very easy. One wishes strongly that you could put aside
agreement and disagreement! That is very difficult for most people who are too
eager to agree or disagree. Our reactions are so quick, we classify everything

- religious man, irreligious man, mundane, and so on. So if you could, this
morning at least, put aside completely agreement and disagreement and
merely observe together, think together. Will you do it? - Put aside altogether
your opinion and my opinion, your way of thinking and the other person's way
of thinking and merely observe together, think together.

Agreement and disagreement divide people. It is illogical to say, `Yes, I
agree with you' or, Ì do not agree with you', because you are either projecting,
holding on to your opinion, your judgement, your evaluation, or discarding
what is said. So could we this morning,just for amusement, for entertainment if
you like, forget our opinions, our judgements, our agreements or
disagreements and have a good clear brain - not devotional or emotional or
romantic, but a brain that does not get involved in all the complications of
theory, opinion, admission and dissension. Could we do that?

So let us proceed. What is thinking? Every human being in the world,
everyone from the most ignorant, most crude, from the very, very small person
in a little village to the most highly sophisticated scientist, has something in
common - thinking. We all think - the villager who has never read anything,

33
never been to a school, college or university, and most of you here who have been educated. The man who sits in the Himalayas by himself, he also thinks.

And this thinking has been going on right from the beginning. So you must first
ask the question: what is thinking? What is it that you think about? Will you
answer that question first - not from books, not from the Gita or the

Upanishads or the Bible or the Koran.

What is thinking? We live by thinking. Our daily action is based on thinking.

You may think one way, and another may think another way, but it is still
thinking. So, what is it? Can you think if you have no memory? Can you think
backwards and forward, - what you will do tomorrow or the next hour, or what
you have done yesterday or this morning? - which in the technological world of
the computer is called architecture. So we must find out, together, not the

Indian way of thinking or the European way of thinking, or the particular way of
thinking of the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Muslim, the Christian or any other sect,
but what is thinking. Unless we really understand the process of thinking, our
life is always going to be very, very limited. So, we must very deeply, seriously,
examine this whole process of thinking which shapes our life. Man has created
god by his thinking; god has not created man. It must be a very poor god who
created these human beings who are fighting each other perpetually. So, what
is thinking and why have we made problems of it?

Why do we have problems in our life? We have plenty of them - political
problems, financial problems, economic problems, the problems of one religion
against another, problems by the thousands. What is a problem and what is
the meaning of the word problem? According to the dictionary, it means
something thrown at you, a challenge, something you've got to look at, face.

You can't dodge it, you can't run away from it, you can't suppress it; it's there
like a sore thumb. Why is it that all our life, from the moment we are born till
we die, we have problems - about death, about fear, about a hundred things?

Are you asking this question, or am I asking it for you? From the moment you
are born you have problems. You go to school - there, you have to read, write,
and that becomes a problem to the child. A little later he has to learn

34
mathematics, and that becomes a problem. And the mother says, `Do this, and don't do that,' and that becomes a problem. So from childhood we are bred in
problems, our brain is conditioned in problems; it's never free from problems.

As you grow, become adolescent, have sex, learn how to earn money,
whether to follow society or not - all this becomes a problem. And in the end
you yield to society, to the environment. Every politician in the world solves
one problem and thereby creates other problems. Haven't you noticed all this?

The human brain - what is inside this skull - itself has problems. So can the
brain ever be free of problems to solve problems? Do you understand my
question? If the brain is not free of problems, then how can it solve any
problem? This is logical. Right? So, your brain, which carries memories, which
has acquired tremendous industrial knowledge, has been nurtured, educated,
to have problems. We are asking now if that brain can be free of problems
first, so that it can then solve problems. Can you be free of problems first? Or
is that impossible? Our brain is conditioned in the various narrow religions; it is conditioned by specialization, by the environment in which we live, by our
education, by poverty or richness, by the vows you have taken as monks. (I do
not know why, but you have taken them and it becomes a torture, a problem.)

So our brains are extraordinarily conditioned as businessman, housekeeper,
and so on. And from that narrow point of view we look at the world.

So we have to go into this question not only of having problems but also of
what is thinking. Why do we think at all? Is there a different way of action? Is
there a different manner of approaching life, of daily living, that doesn't require thinking at all? First, we'll have to look very closely, together; find out for
ourselves, and then act. So, we are going to go into that. What is thinking? If
you didn't think, you would not be here. You have made arrangements to come
here at a certain time, and you have also made arrangements to go back. That
is thinking. What is thinking philosophically? Philosophy means the love of
truth, the love of life - not passing some examination at a university. So let us
find out, together, what is thinking.

35

If you had no memory of yesterday, no memory at all of any kind, would you think? Of course not - you can't think if you have no memory, right? So
what is memory? You did something yesterday, and that is registered in the
brain, and according to that memory you think and act. You remember
somebody flattering you, remember somebody hurting you, saying ugly things
about you. That is, memory is the outcome of knowledge. Now, what is
knowledge? This is rather difficult. We all accumulate knowledge; the great
scholars, the great professors, scientists, acquire tremendous knowledge. So
what is knowledge? How does it come about? Knowledge comes when there
is experience. You are in an accident in a car - that becomes an experience.

From that experience you have knowledge. And from that knowledge you have
memory. From memory you have thought. Right? So, what is experience? It is
that incident, the accident in a car, which is registered in the brain as
knowledge. Experience, knowledge, memory, thought: this is logical - not my
way of looking at it or your way of looking at it.

So, all experience, whether it is god's experience or your experience, is
limited. The scientists are adding to it more and more every day, and that
which is added to is always limited, right? I know little, and I must know more -
you are adding. Your experience of something is always limited as there's
something more to be added. So experience is limited, knowledge is limited -
for ever. Therefore, memory is limited, and so thought is limited, right? And
where there is limitation, there is division - as the Sikh, the Hindu, the

Buddhist, the Muslim, the Christian, the democrat, the republican, the
communist. They're all based on thought, and therefore all the governments
are limited, all your activity is limited. Whether you think most abstractly or try to be very noble, it is still thinking, right? So, from that limited quality of
thinking, as thinking is always limited, our actions are limited. Now, from that
you begin to enquire very carefully: can thought have its right place and have
no other place at all? You understand my question? So, is there an action
which is free of limitation? That is, thinking being limited, we have reduced the
whole universe into a very small affair. We have made our life into such a
small affair, like thinking - I must be this, I must not be that, I must have power.

36

You follow? We have reduced the enormous quality of life into a very small, petty little affair.

So, is it possible to be free of thought? Which means, I must think to come
here; if I am a bureaucrat, I must think in terms of bureaucracy; if I go to the
factory and turn the screw, I must have certain knowledge. Why should I have
knowledge about myself? - the higher self, lower self and all that? Why should

I have knowledge about that? It's very simple - it's self-interest; I'm only
concerned with myself actually. We may pretend to have brotherhood, we may
talk about peace, play with words, but we're always self-centred. So, from that
arises the question: With this self-centredness, which is essentially deep
selfishness, can there be a change at all? Can we be utterly selfless? So we
have to enquire: what is the self?

What are you apart from your name and profession, your vows, following
some guru? What are you? Or I'll put it another way - are you your name, are
you your profession, are you part of the community, part of the tradition? Don't
repeat what the Geeta says, what the Upanishads say or somebody says;
that's futile. Actually, what are you? Is this the first time this question has been put to you - what are you? Aren't you your fear, aren't you your name, aren't
you your body? Aren't you what you think you are, the image you have built
about yourself? Aren't you all that? Aren't you your anger? Or is the anger
separate from you? Come on, sirs, aren't you your fears, your ambitions, your
greed, your competition, your uncertainty, your confusion, your pain, your
sorrow - aren't you all that? Aren't you the guru you follow? So, when you
identify yourself with that, aren't you all that? Or are you something higher up -
superself, superconsciousness? If you say you have super-consciousness, a
higher self, that's also part of thinking; therefore, what you call higher thinking, higher self, is still very small. So, what are you? I'm saying, you're a bundle of
all that is put together by thought. Whatever you think, you are. You may
invent all kinds of stuff, but that invention too is what you are. Right? Putting it all together it is called me, myself, my ego, my personality, my higher self, my
god. And I invent all this kind of stuff. Who has put all this together? Or is there 37
only one structure? Who has divided all this? Who has said I'm a Hindu or I'm a Muslim? Is it merely propaganda? Who created the division between
countries? Thought? Or is it desire, the longing to be identified, to be safe?

I'm asking you most respectfully, who has created this division? Is it
thought? Of course, but behind thought there is something else. Who is doing
all this, apart from thought? What is the desire, what is the urge, what is the
movement behind it? Security, isn't it? I want to be secure; that's why I follow a
guru. I want to be secure in my relationship with you, with my wife - she is my
wife, - secure, protected, safe. The desire, the urge, the response, the
reaction, is for safety - I must be safe, secure.

We all want security, but we never question: is there security at all? Is there
any place where I can say I'm safe? You distrust your wife, your wife distrusts
you. You distrust your boss because you want his place. It is all common
sense. You may laugh at it now but each human being in the world wants to
have a place where he can be safe, secure, where there is no competition,
where he is not pushed around, where he is not harassed. Don't you want all
that? But you never ask: is there security at all? If you want security, you must
also ask the question: Is there security at all?

Then the question arises: Why do you want security? Is there security in
your thinking? Is there security in your relationship - with your wife and with
your children? Is there security in your job? You may be a professor, carefully
protected, but there are higher professors; so you want to become the vice-
chancellor. So where is security? There may be no security at all.Just think
about it, sir, see the beauty of that - having no desire for security, having no
urge, no feeling of any kind in which there is security. In your homes, in your
offices, in your factories, in your parliaments and so on, is there security? Life
may not have security; life is meant to be lived, not to create problems and
then try to solve them. It's meant to be lived, and it will die. That's one of our
fears - to die, right?

So, this morning, have we learned from each other - not helped each other

- have we learned, have we heard at all what the speaker is talking about?

38

Have you heard with the ear, seen the facts of the world which is you - for the world is you? Or are they all ideas? There is a difference between fact and
idea; the idea is never the fact. The word `microphone' is not the microphone,
this thing in front of the speaker. But we have made the word the thing. So the

Hindu is not you - the word is not you. You are the fact, not the word. So, can
we see the word and see that the word is not the thing? The word `god' is not
god. The word is different, totally, from the reality.

So, we are asking most respectfully: what have you learned this morning,
actually learned, so that you will act, not say yes, quite right, and go home and
carry on as before. The world is in great chaos. I don't know if you realize it;
there is great trouble in the world, great misery. You are confused, therefore
you are creating all this in the world around you. If you don't alter yourself, the world cannot alter, change. Because, in the world, everywhere you go, every
human being goes through the same phenomenon as you are going through -
uncertain, unhappy, fearful, insecure, wanting security, trying to control, saying
that your guru is better than my guru, and so on. You understand, sir?

The speaker is not an optimist or a pessimist. We are presenting you with
facts, not newspaper facts. We are talking together about your life, not the life
of a guru, or an emperor, or somebody or other. We are talking together about
your life. Your life is like that of the rest of the world. Human beings are terribly unhappy, uncertain, miserable, unemployed by the millions, in poverty, hunger,
sorrow, pain,just like you; you're not different from them. You may call yourself

Hindu or Muslim or Christian or what you like, but consciously, inwardly, you
are just like the rest of the world. You may be dark brown, they may be light
brown, have a different government, but every human being shares this
terrible world. We have made the world - you understand? We are society. If
you want society to be something different, you have to start, you have to bring
order to your house, the house which is you.

39

Chapter 5 1985 2nd Public Talk

In Varanasi 19th November

MAY WE GO on with what we were talking about yesterday? As we said,
we are taking a long journey together, in a train a very long journey, right
throughout the world, and that journey began two and a half million years ago.

During that long interval of time and distance, we've had a great many
experiences, and those experiences are stored in our brain, either in the
conscious or in the unconscious, deeper layers of it. And, together, you and
the speaker are going to examine explore. Not that the speaker alone talks -
we're talking together. The speaker is putting it into words, and the words have
a very significant meaning - not just the vocabulary, but the depth of the word,
the significance of the word, the meaning of the word.

As you and the speaker are taking the journey together, you can't just go to
sleep. You can't just say, `Yes, I agree' or Ì disagree'. We went into that; we
are not agreeing or disagreeing. We are merely looking out of the window,
seeing what extraordinary things man has gone through, what experience,
what pain, what sorrow, what unbearable things man has created for himself
and for the world. We are not taking sides, pro and con, left, right or centre -
please understand this very carefully.

This is not a political meeting, this is not an entertainment; this is a serious
gathering. If you want to be entertained, you should go to a cinema or a
football match. This is a very serious meeting as far as the speaker is
concerned. He has talked all over the world: unfortunately or fortunately he
may have created a reputation, and probably you are coming here because of
that reputation, but that has no value at all. So, we are going to examine
together, sitting together in that train, taking an infinitely long journey. We are not trying to impress you, we are not trying to force you to look at something.

We are looking at our daily life and all the background of a million years.

One must listen to all the whispers, hear every moment, see everything as it is

- not as you would wish it to be but actually what you see out of the window of

40
the train as it goes along - the hills, the rivers, the stretch of water and all the beauty around you. Shall we talk about beauty for a while? Would it interest
you? It's a very serious subject, like everything in life. Probably you have never
asked what beauty is. For the moment we are going to enquire into what it is
because you are passing in that train the most wonderful scenery - the hills,
the rivers, the great snowclad mountains, deep valleys, and not only things
outside you, but also the inward structure and nature of your own being - what
you think, what you feel, what your desires are. One has to listen to all this -
not only to our own inward thoughts, feelings, and our opinions and
judgements, but also to the sound of what other people are saying - what your
wife is saying, what your neighbour is saying; listen to the sound of that crow,
feel the beauty of the world, the beauty of nature. Not just say yes, right,
wrong, this is what I think, this is what I should not think, or merely follow some tradition, but very quietly, without any reaction, see the beauty of a tree.

So together, we're going to talk about beauty. What is beauty? Have you
been to museums, some of you? Probably not. I won't take you around the
museums; I am not a guide. But instead of looking at the pictures, and statues
of the ancient Greeks, ancient Egyptians, Romans and the moderns, we are
looking, asking, inquiring, demanding to find out what is beauty. Not the form,
not a woman or a man or small child that is extraordinarily beautiful - all
children are - but what is beauty? I'm asking the question, sir. Please answer it
to yourself first, or have you never thought about it? Not the beauty of a face,
but the beauty of a green lawn, of a flower, of the great mountains with the
snow covering them, and the deep valleys, and the still tranquil waters of a
river. All that is outside you and you say, `How beautiful that is!' What does
that word `beauty' mean? It's very important to find that out, because we have
so little beauty in our daily life. If you go through Benares you will know all
about it - the filthy streets, the dust, the dirt. And seeing all this, as also the tenderness of a leaf or the tender generosity of human beings, you enquire
deeply about this word that is used by poets, painters and sculptors, as you
are asking yourself now. What is this quality of beauty? Do you want me to
answer it or will you answer it? The gentleman says, you answer it because

41
we don't know. Why? Why don't you know? Why haven't we enquired into this enormous question? You have your own poets, from the ancient people to
now. They write about it, they sing about it, they dance, and you say you don't
know what beauty is. What a strange people you are!

So, what is beauty? The same question put in different words is what are
you? What is the nature and structure of you, apart from the biological factor?

That is very closely related to what is beauty. When you look at a mountain,
snowcapped, deep valleys, blue, deep hills, what do you feel, what's your real
response to all that? Aren't you, for a second or for a few minutes, absolutely
shocked by it, by the greatness, the immensity of the green valley, the
extraordinary light and the blue sky against the snowclad mountains? What
happens to you at that moment when you look at that - the grandeur, the
majesty of those mountains? What do you feel? Do you, for the moment, or for
a few minutes, exist at all? You understand my question? Please don't agree;
look at it very closely. At that moment when you look at something grand,
immense, majestic, for a second you don't exist - you've forgotten your
worries, your wife and your children, your job, all the messiness of your life. At
that moment you are stunned by it. For that second, the grandeur has wiped
out all your memory, just for a second, and then you come back. What
happens during that second when you are not there?

That is beauty - you understand? - when you are not there. With the
grandeur, the majesty of a mountain or a lake, or that river early in the morning
making a golden path, for a second you've forgotten everything. That is, when
the self is not, there is beauty. Where you are not, with all your problems and
responsibilities, your traditions and all that rubbish, then there is beauty. Like a child with a toy, as long as the toy is complex and he plays with it, the toy
absorbs him, takes him over. The moment the toy is broken, he's back to
whatever it was he was doing. We are also like that. We are absorbed by the
mountain; it's a toy for us for a second, or for a few minutes; then we go back
to our world. And we are saying, without a toy, without being absorbed by
something greater, can you be free of yourself? You understand my question?

42

You don't understand this; you're too clever; you are covered with a lot of knowledge, experience, and so on. That's what's the matter with all of you -
too much learning. You're not simple enough. If you are very simple, deeply
simple in yourself, you will discover something extraordinary.

We have talked over beauty for a while. Now let us look at ourselves. We
have created the world - you, the speaker, his forefathers, the past
generations. What is it all about? - killing each other, maiming each other,
dividing: my god, your god. Why is this society so ugly, so brutal, so cruel?

Who has created this monstrous world? I am not being pessimistic or
optimistic, but look at the world, the things that are going on outside of you:

poor countries buying armaments, your country buying armaments, and
immense poverty, competition - who has created all this? Will you say god has
created it? He must be a messy god. So who created this society, who put it
together? Haven't you put it together? Not only you, but your father, your
great-grandfather, the past generations of a million years - they have created
this society through their avarice, envy, competition. They have divided the
world economically, socially, religiously. Face the facts, sir. We have put this
society together, we are responsible for it - not god, not some external factors,
but each one of us has created this society. You belong to this group and I
belong to another group; you worship one god and I worship another god: you
follow one guru and I follow another. So we have divided society, and we have
divided it not only socially, but also religiously. Geographically we have divided
the world - Europe, America, Russia; we have divided culture - western culture
and eastern culture; we have divisions in government - socialist, democratic,
republican, communist, and so on. You understand, sir, how our brain works?

It divides, divides, divides. Haven't you noticed this fact? And out of this
division comes conflict.

So you have created this society; you are this society. So, unless you
change radically, you'll never change it. The communists have tried to change
it, forcing man, secretly, viciously, to submit to various forms of compulsion.

You must know all this: this is history. So where there is division, there must

43
be conflict; that's the law. And apparently we like conflict, we live in perpetual conflict. So we must go back and find out what is the cause of all this. Is it
desire? Is it fear? Is it pleasure? Is it the avoidance of all pain and therefore
guilt? Let us begin to find out for ourselves what is desire. That is the basis -
desire to have power, desire to achieve, desire to become somebody. We are
not against desire, we are not trying to become somebody. We are not against
desire, we are not trying to suppress desire or transcend desire, like the
monks. We must, together, understand what is desire.

Are you interested to find out what is the root of desire? Do you want me to
explain? But explanation is not the thing, the description is not that. When one
describes a marvellous tree, the description is not the tree. We use words to
convey something to each other, but the words, the descriptions, are not the
fact. The word `wife' is not the wife. If you can understand that simple fact, you
will treat her better.

So, what is desire and why does it dominate us? What is its place, what is
its nature? Monks the world over suppress desire or want to transcend desire
or identify it with certain images, certain symbols, certain rituals. But what is
desire? Have you ever asked that question? Or do you yield to desire,
whatever the consequences?

We live by sensation, don't we? - better food, better house, better wife.

Sensation is a part of life, so is sex - it's a sensation, a pleasure, and we have
a great many pleasures, pleasure of possession and so on. Sensation is an
extraordinarily important part of our existence. If you have no sensation you
are dead, right? All your nerves go, your brain withers. We live by sensation,
sensation being touch, feeling, like running a nail suddenly into your finger -
that's sensation; you call it pain. Tears, laughter, humour are all part of
sensation. You want more power, more money, and `the more' is part of
sensation. Every second, every response - intellectual, theoretical,
philosophical - is part of sensation. We live by sensation - be clear on that -
that is, by the senses responding: good taste, bad taste; it's bitter, it's sweet.

Sensation is natural, it is inevitable, it is part of life.

44

What happens when you have a sensation? When you see something very beautiful - a car, a woman, a man, or a lovely house - what happens? You
have seen that lovely house, seen the gardens, seen the beauty of the
landscape, and how the house is built, with styled grace and a sense of
dignity. Then thought comes along, makes an image of that sensation, and
then says, Ì wish I had that house.' At that moment desire is born. When
sensation is given a shape, a form, then, at that second, desire is born. When I
see something I don't have, like a house or a car, then sensation becomes
dominant. When thought gives it an image, when thought comes along and
says, Ì wish I had it', at that moment desire is born. Right? You understand
the subtlety of it, the depth of it? When thought gives a form, a structure, an
image to sensation, at that second desire is born.

Now the question is, can sensation not be caught by thought, which is also
another sensation? You understand, sir? After sensation, take time before
thought gives it a shape - have an interval between sensation and thought
giving it a shape. Do it, and you'll learn a lot from that. So I'm saying, when
there is time in between sensation and thought - an interval, long or short -
you'll understand the nature of desire. In that there is no suppression, no
transcending. Sir, if you drive a car, not knowing the mechanism of it, you are
always a little nervous that something might go wrong. But if you have
dismantled that car and put it together very carefully, known all the parts, then
you're master of the machinery, then you're not afraid, for you can put it
together again. So, if you understand the nature of desire, the way desire
begins, then you are not afraid of it, then you know what to do with it.

There's something else which you and the speaker should talk over
together. We have lived for thousands of years, and we have never
understood the nature of fear. What is the source of fear, what is the cause of
fear? We have apparently never ended fear - biological fear as well as
psychological fear, inward fear - fear of death, fear of not having, not
possessing, fear of loneliness - we have so many fears. Out of these fears you
create gods, you create rituals, spiritual hierarchies, gurus, all the temples of

45
the world. And we're asking, what is fear? Not your particular form of fear, not my fear and your fear, but fear? As I said, if you understand the machinery of a
car, you're not afraid of it. So if you know, realize, understand the nature of
fear, the cause of it, the root of it, then you will transcend fear, and fear is
gone. We are going to do that this morning.

We are asking, what is fear, what is the cause of it - not how to end it, not
how to transcend it, control it, suppress it, and run away from it, as you're
doing, but what is the cause, the source of it? Think it out, sir, go into it for a minute. Take your fear, your particular fear, or fears; what is the root of them?

- security? desire for more? If you haven't found it, you ask somebody like the
speaker what the cause is. Will you listen?

Will you actually listen? I will explain, but the explanation is not the thing.

Does the word `fear' evoke fear in you? Fear is a fact; the word is not the fact.

So the explanation is not a means to end fear. We have to examine then what
is time, because time is fear: tomorrow something might happen, my house
might fall down, my wife might turn to another man, my husband might go off -
and I'm in fear. Fear of the past, fear of the future, fear of the present: I have
been that, I won't be that, but I am not that now - that whole process is a
movement in time. From here to there is a movement, and it needs time. All
movement is time.

The past shapes the present. The past is operating now, and the future is
shaped by the present - modified. Circumstances change, certain incidents
happen, so the past is modified, changed, altered, and the future is what
happens now. All time - the past, the present and the future - is contained in
the now. This applies to life; it is not just a theory. You were something
yesterday; an incident takes place today that changes, modifies, slightly alters
the past, and the future is what you are now, modified. That is, the past, the
present and the future are now; tomorrow is now. If there is no mutation now,
you'll be exactly the same as you've been before. I think I am a Hindu, with all
the circus romp behind it, and I'll be a Hindu tomorrow. That is logical.

Therefore what you do now matters much more than what you will do

46
tomorrow. So, what are you going to do if tomorrow is now? That is a fact; it is not my theory or your theory, it's a fact. I am greedy now, and if I don't do
anything about it now, I'll be greedy tomorrow. Can you stop being greedy
today? Will you? No, of course not. So you will be what you have been. This
has been the pattern of humanity for millions of years.

You don't mind killing. Be honest. You don't mind killing, you subscribe to it,
you want your country to be strong. Right? Don't be ashamed of it - this is a
fact. And so you gather armaments. If you don't stop being an Indian now,
you'll be an Indian tomorrow. So I'm asking, what will you do now? Stop being
an Indian, will you? Do you know what the implications are? - not the passport,
not the paper - but not being associated with any religion, any group; they are
all phoney anyhow. Is that possible? Will you do it? Do you see that if there is
no mutation now, today, you'll be exactly the same tomorrow? This is not being
optimistic or pessimistic; this is a fact. Do you understand the seriousness of
it? If there is no radical mutation now, I'll be the same tomorrow.

So time is a factor in fear. And fear is a common factor of all mankind. Can
that fear - not one branch of it - but the root of fear be totally demolished? -
that is, to have no fear of any kind. The speaker says it is eminently possible;
that it can be done radically. The speaker is saying that fear can be totally
ended. Don't say it is for the illumined one and all that nonsense. You can end
it if you put your brain, your heart into it - completely, not partially. And then
you will see for yourself what immense beauty there is in it; a sense of utter
freedom - not freedom of a country or of some government, but the sense of
the enormity of freedom, the greatness of freedom.

Will you do it - today, now? From today, seeing the cause of fear, end it. As
long as there is fear - biologically, physically, psychologically - it destroys us.

So, if one may ask, after listening to this fact, not theory, what are you going to do? Time is the factor of fear and thought; so if you don't change now, you
won't ever change. It is constant postponement.

47

Chapter 6 3rd Public Talk

In Varanasi 22nd November 1985

WE ARE GOING TO talk over together a great many things this morning,
and, as we said, we're not the only speaker; you and the speaker are sharing
all the issues that we are going to discuss. We are participating in them, not
just listening casually. In the last two talks we've dealt with many things: fear
and all the travail of man, the problems that we have, which we never seem to
resolve; we went into that carefully. The problems exist because our minds are
filled with problems; therefore there is no freedom to look at any problem. Also
we went into the question of thought - why thought has made this life so utterly
impossible. Thought has brought about a great deal of conflict, wars for two
and a half million years, which means practically every year we kill each other

- in the name of god, in the name of patriotism, my country against your
country, our religion against your religion, and so on. And we also talked about
the nature of thought, why thought divides men or brings them together to do a
certain project, like going to the moon. To build that rocket, you probably had
to have over 300,000 people, all of them doing their little job perfectly. Either
we get together in a crisis like war which is born of hatred, or we come
together on some national issue, or when there is a great calamity like an
earthquake, or volcanic eruption. Apart from that, we never get together.

Now, this morning, if I may most respectfully suggest, we should all get
together, as we are all sitting together, and gather energy so that we can think
out very clearly the various issues we are going to raise together. That means
to activate our brains which are rather sluggish, slow, monotonous, repetitive.

So we are together keeping our brains alert. We have not only to keep the
physical organism active because that gives energy, but to have a very clear,
active brain. Not a specialized brain as a philosopher, as a scientist, as a
physicist, and so on. Those specialized brains become very narrow.

Philosophy, according to the dictionary, means the love of truth, the love of life, the love of wisdom - not just adding more and more theories or quoting
somebody and explaining what they have quoted.

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I don't know if you've ever gone into the question of learning, what it is to learn. Now we are going to find out together what it means. We generally take
learning to mean memorizing. All through school, college and university you
memorize. And that memory can be used to earn a livelihood, to gain power,
possessions, prestige, patronage, and so on. Is there another kind of learning?

We know the ordinary kind of learning - at school, college, university or
learning a skill to become an excellent carpenter or a plumber or a cook. So,
what is learning? Have you ever thought about it? When you're memorizing,
your brain is filled with memories. That's simple. Memory multiplies, keeps you
somewhat alert, you learn more and more and more. So the speaker is asking
you - is there a different kind of learning altogether, which is not merely
memorizing.

This is a very important question because the brain records every incident,
every kind of memory. When you're hurt it is recorded, but you never enquire
who is hurt; we'll come to that presently. So the brain is recording; see the
importance of that. It has to record, otherwise you and I wouldn't be here. So
the brain is constantly recording discarding. Now, is it necessary to record?

You have an incident in a car - an accident; it is instantly recorded, because
you are hurt or your car is damaged. The brain has the capacity, the energy,
not only to record but also to safeguard itself. And we are asking: is it
necessary to record everything? Or can we record only that which is
necessary and nothing else? Have you put this question to yourself? The brain
records for its own security, otherwise you and I wouldn't be sitting here. You
have recorded how long it took you to come here and so on. We're asking, is it
necessary to record certain things, and totally unnecessary where the psyche
is involved? You understand my question, sir? Is it necessary when you are
flattered or when you're insulted to record it? Is it necessary to record these
things?

The recording builds up the psyche. This is a very serious question. The
psyche, which is made up of various elements, characteristics, ethos, is
contained in the brain, which we call consciousness. In that consciousness,

49
memories, fears, etc., are contained. So we're asking again, is it necessary to build up the psyche? The psyche means the self, the self being all the
memories, the activities of thought, imagination, fascination, fear, pleasure,
sorrow, pain. It is recording that makes up the whole psyche, the Ì', the
persona.

So we're asking, Is it necessary to record so as to build up the self? Have
you ever thought about this, looked at it or investigated it, gone into this
question of recording as you would into various philosophical, religious
matters? It may be necessary to record certain things and totally unnecessary
to record others - see the beauty of it - so that the brain is not always
conditioned in memory, so that the brain becomes extraordinarily free, but
active. That is the first question.

So, learning is not to record. We have discussed this matter with
psychiatrists in New York. They were fascinated with the idea of not recording,
so that the brain cells themselves mutate. Our brains are built up of cells and
so on - I'm not a professional - and in the brain cells are the memories. And we
live on those memories - the past and all the remembrances that one has. And
the older you get the more you go back, further and further, till you die. And it
is important to learn to find out whether the brain needs to record everything.

Forgetting, and not recording, are two entirely different matters. When you are
hurt, not physically but psychologically, inwardly, you say Ì am hurt.' You are
all hurt, aren't you? From childhood till you grow old and die, you are being
hurt all the time. You say, Ì can't stand any more hurts, I've been hurt so
much. I'm frightened.' I build a wall around myself, isolate myself - all these are the consequences of being hurt.

Now, who is being hurt? You say, Ìt's me.' Then what is `me'? You just say

`me', Ì', the ego, any word that comes, but you don't investigate who is the Ì',
who is the persona. Who are you - a name, a degree if you are fortunate or
unfortunate enough, a job, a house or a flat, and a title after a name? There
are the images you have built about yourself, so that when you say you are
hurt, the images about yourself are hurt. But all those images are you - you're

50
a physicist, you're a doctor, you're a philosopher, you're an MP, or an engineer. Have you ever realized how someone is always introduced by his
profession? So the self, the psyche, the persona, is the image which you have
built about yourself.

You have built an image about your wife, and she builds an image about
you - and these images have relationship. See what is happening. The images
have relationship - not the persons but the images - and you live on that. So
you never know your wife or your husband or your friend. Or you don't care to
know, but you have the image. So the question is: can you live without a single
image? See the implications of it, the beauty of it, the freedom of it.

We ought to talk over together why we make all this effort in life. Why do
we make such an immense effort to do anything? We make tremendous
efforts to meditate, to live, to fight, to battle with one another - opinion against opinion, judgement against judgement, I agree with you, I disagree with him.

Why all this effort? For what? - for money, for your family, for affection, to feel that you must be loved by somebody?

When you ask that question, then you must ask, what is love? Is love
effort? - I must love you, therefore I am going to make an effort about it. Can
there be love when there is ambition? Sir, please, this is serious; this is not for somebody who doesn't care, who just wants his own way. Is love ambition, is it
greed, is it self-centredness? Is love the opposite of hate?

You know, we have always been fighting - the good fighting the bad, all
through life. You see it in paintings symbolizing the good and symbolizing the
devil. In Greek mythology and other mythologies it is the white bull against the
black bull or good fighting evil in different shapes, symbols and so on. We still
do that - the good fighting the bad. Is the good separate from the bad? Is the
good born out of the bad? If the good is related to the bad, then it's not good. If the good is born of, comes from, the bad, then it's not good. That is simple,
isn't it? But if the bad is totally divorced from the good, if there is no
relationship between the good and the bad, then there is only the bad and the
good, totally divorced from each other. Therefore they can't fight.

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So then we have to enquire, what is the good? And you have to ask, can love contain hate? Or, has hate nothing to do with love - therefore there is no
relationship between the two, therefore they can't fight each other? This is an
important question for you to understand, go into. You always say, Ì have not
been good today, but I will be good tomorrow,' or, Ì have been angry today,
but I will not be angry tomorrow.' This is the relative relationship between the
good and the bad. Love has nothing whatsoever to do with jealousy; love has
nothing whatsoever to do with hate. Where there is hate, pleasure, anxiety,
and so on, love cannot exist. And the speaker questions whether you love
anybody at all.

What is love? How does it come about? Do you really ask that question, or
am I asking it for you? Can love exist where there is sorrow? Most of us are in
sorrow of some kind or other - failing in an exam, failing to be successful in
business or in politics, or in your relationship with your wife, or in your
relationship with somebody upstairs - which may be your guru or some other
imaginative figure. So when you can't succeed you are depressed, you are
sorrowful. Or you are sorrowful because you live in a small little village and
you don't know how to read and write, you don't know how to drive a car, or
you have no hot bath or you wear one dirty cloth. The man in a position high
up on the ladder - he suffers too.

So, everyone on this earth - everyone - from the richest to the poorest, from
the most powerful to the least powerful, suffers. Suffering is not yours,
because everyone suffers. It's not my suffering; it's suffering. I wonder if you
understand that? My son dies and I get terribly upset. I weep and I say, `My
god, I've lost my son,' and that becomes a perpetual problem. I weep every
time I see a little boy or a little girl. And I go through the pain of loneliness,
sorrow.

If there is sorrow, there is no love. Please realize this. If I suffer, suffer,
suffer, it's part of self-pity, self-concern, it's: `My sorrow is different from your sorrow', likèMy guru is stronger than your guru', or `My god is different from
your god'. So, is there an end to sorrow? Or must mankind go through this

52
sorrow all its life? The speaker says it can end. Otherwise there is no love. I'm shedding tears all the time, I suffer, and you come along and tell me, Èvery
human being on earth suffers; it is not your suffering, we all share it.' I refuse
to accept such a statement because I love my sorrow, I'm happy in my sorrow,
and I want to be separate in my sorrow.

To get a feeling of this requires a great deal of enquiry, persuasion, talking
over, saying, Ìt is not quite yours. Have a little bit of it, but it isn't quite yours'.

That means no self-pity, and it means you are really sharing the burden of
sorrow for all the rest of mankind. Go on, sir, think about it, look at it; you are part of humanity; you are not separate from humanity. You may have a better
position, better degrees, better money, but you are part of mankind, your
consciousness is part of mankind. Your consciousness contains all the things
that you have thought about, imagined, feared, and so on. Your consciousness
is that, and that is also the consciousness of mankind. Mankind has fear,
sorrow, pain, anxiety, tears, uncertainty, confusion. Every human being on
earth has all this, and you are like the rest. So you are not individuals. I know
my body is different from your body - you are a woman, I'm a man. But we are
in the world as one unit. When you feel that relationship, you are the rest of
mankind. Then something totally different takes place, not just words,
imaginings, but the feeling of it, the enormity of it.

We ought to talk about death. Sorry, on a lovely morning, sitting under the
trees, quiet - no train crossing the bridge - to talk about death may seem
morbid, may seem ugly. Now together, we're going to examine it, share it - not
you just listening and I talking. So, what is death? Why are we so frightened of
it? Why do we keep death for ten years later or twenty years later or a hundred
years later? Then, you have not only to ask what is death and dying, but also
what is living. What is your life? - office from nine to five, as a clerk, as a
governor, a factory worker or whatever it is, for the rest of your life, except
when you retire as a gaga old man. And your life is breeding children, sex,
pleasure, pain, sorrow, anxiety, problem after problem - illness, doctors,
caesarean operations, pain in giving birth. This is your life. Do you deny that?

53

And you call this living. You support it, you enjoy it, you want more and more of it. Right? And you put death as many years away as possible. And in that
distance of time you are building up the same pattern over and over. Your
children, your grandchildren, all live in that same pattern which you call living.

So I say to myself, why not bring that which you call death into living? You
can't take anything with you - not even all that your guru has said and all that
you have tried to live up to, nor your furniture, your wife, your children, nor all the silver you have collected, all the money in the bank. So, as you cannot
take anything with you, why not let life and death meet? You understand what

I'm saying? Why not let death come today? Not suicide - I'm not talking about
that. Why not be totally free of attachment now - which is death? Be totally
detached - today, not tomorrow. Tomorrow is death. So, why can't I be free of
my attachments now so that living and dying are together all the time? I
wonder if you see the beauty of it. That gives you an immense sense of
freedom. So living and dying are together, always. It's not something to be
frightened about. If the brain can do that, then there is a totally different quality to the brain. It has no hooks, it has no sense of the past, the future, the
present. It is living - it is really an endless way of living. That is, every day is a new day. Don't mistake what I'm talking about - the future is now.

There is no Ì shall be born again next life'. That is an idea to which you're
attached. It gives you great comfort, but if you believe in reincarnation, then
you must act rightly now, because next life you are going to pay for it or be
rewarded. It's a very comforting idea, but it is meaningless. Because, if you act
rightly now, righteousness has no reward. Righteousness is righteousness, not
what you are going to get out of it. That is a merchandizing attitude, a
mechanical attitude.

We should talk about religion. What is religion? Sir, this is one of the
important questions in life. There are temples all over India, mosques all over
the world, churches all over the world and their priests beautifully decorated,
beautifully garbed, all medallions and so on. This has been one of the
problems from the most ancient times: the priest and the king - the priest

54
wanted power, the king also wanted power. But the priest was stronger because he was the one who wrote, read, and the king had to obey him
because he was supposed to be the wiser man. And gradually the king said,

`This is not good enough,' and so there was a war between the priest and the
king. This is historical; you will find it in different books.

The word `religion' had a very complicated meaning at one time, but now it
has become a symbol, a ritual, a superstition. Is this religion, or is religion
something entirely different, something which has nothing to do with rituals,
with symbols, because all these have been invented by man? Because priests
wanted power, position, they put on new hats, new clothes and grew long
beards or shaved their heads - and all this is called religion. To an ordinary,
thoughtful, fairly intelligent man, it is rubbish, total rubbish. If he discards all that, really discards it totally, puts away being a Hindu with all its superstitions, symbols, worship, prayer, then he is a serious man; he is not a wordmonger.

Sir, the speaker is not laying down the law. Let us talk about it, let us
investigate, let us go into it together. Our brains are chattering all the time.

Haven't you noticed it? - Chattering, chattering, chattering or imagining,
perpetually in action. There is never a moment of silence. And silence is also
repetition - `Ram, Ram' or whatever you may repeat. When you repeat
something mechanically, as you repeat the word, gradually the brain, through
repetition, becomes dull and quiet; and that quietness is something marvellous
to you. You think you've achieved some tremendous thing and you go around
repeating this to others, and the poor gullible people say, `Yes, yes'. Your
meditation is a series of achievements. Can you discard all that nonsense?

For the speaker it is complete nonsense, it is like going to the circus.

We have to enquire what is meditation and what is silence. Silence allows
space. You can't be silent in time. We have to go into this question of
meditation, space, time, and whether there is an ending to time. We are not
telling you how to meditate. Don't ask how to meditate. It is like telling a
carpenter how to build a beautiful cabinet. If he is a good carpenter, you don't
have to tell him. Your meditation now is achievement.

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The word `meditation' means `to ponder over, think, weigh, look at carefully'. It also means `to measure', from ma in Sanskrit. When you compare

- Ì was this today, I'll be that tomorrow' - that is measurement. Measurement
has no place in meditation. Measurement is necessary in all technologies -
whether you build a chair or the most complicated rocket to go to the moon.

We are saying, meditation implies total freedom from all comparison and
measurement - and this is difficult. Meditation is something that is marvellous if
you know what to do. The meditator is different from meditation. As long as
you are the meditator, there is no meditation, because the meditator is
concerned about himself - how he is progressing, what he is doing. In
meditation there is no meditator at all. See for yourself the beauty, the depth,
the subtlety of it. The practice of meditation is not meditation - sitting and
making the mind more and more dull, and saying, `Yes, I've spent an hour.'

(By the way, sir, don't touch my feet - that's most undignified, as a human
being. You can hold my hand, but not the feet; it's inhuman, undignified.)

So meditation is something that cannot be practised as you practise a
violin, a piano. To practise means you want to reach a certain level of
perfection. But in meditation there is no level, nothing to be achieved.

Therefore there is not a conscious, deliberate meditation; it is a meditation
which is totally undirected, totally - if I may use the word - ùnconscious'. It is
not a deliberate process. Let's leave it at that. We can spend a lot of time on
this - an hour, a whole day, the whole of your life to find this out.

Now let us talk about space. Because meditation is that - space. We have
no space in the brain. There is space between two struggles, between two
thoughts, but it is still within the sphere of thought. So, what is space? Does
space contain time? Or does time include all space? We talked about time. If
space contains time, then it is not space. Then it is circumscribed, limited. So,
can the brain be free of time? Sir, this is such an important, immense question;
you don't seem to gather it.

If life, all of life, is contained in the now, do you see what it means? All
humanity is you. All humanity - because you suffer, he suffers; his

56
consciousness is you; your consciousness, your being, is him. There is no you and me that limits space. So, is there an end to time - not to the clock which
you wind and it stops, but to the whole movement of time?

Time is movement, a series of incidents. Thought is also a series of
movements. So time is thought. So we are saying, if space contains time, it is
not space. So, is there an end to time? Which means, is there an end to
thought; which means, is there an end to knowledge; is there an end to
experience? - which is total freedom. And this is meditation. Not sitting and
looking - that's childish. This demands not only a great deal of the intellect, but insight. The physicist, the artist, the painter, the poet and so on have a limited
insight. We are talking about a timeless insight. This is meditation, this is
religion, and this is the way to live, if you want to, all the rest of your days.

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Chapter 7 Discussion With The Campers Varanasi

21st November 1985

KRISHNAMURTI (K): This is supposed to be a conversation between us.

You are going to question me, question the speaker; we are going to have a
discussion, a deliberation, take counsel together, weigh together, consider
together, balance things together. It is not that one person answers your
question or your queries; not that the speaker considers and then you agree -
that is rather childish - but, rather, we are going to have a conversation
together. probably, you are not used to this - really to talk to somebody openly,
frankly; probably you never do, even to your wife or husband or somebody
closely related. You put on your mask, you pretend. If you could, put aside all
that this morning and consider what questions we have, what we would like to
talk over together, what you are most concerned with; not just some absurd
stuff, but rather, what you really want to find out.

Before we begin to discuss - how do you approach a question? You
understand what I am asking? How do you regard a question, a problem; how
do you weigh the problem; how do you come very close to the problem? We
cannot expect the speaker to answer your question because in the question
itself may be the answer. Do you understand? So, whatever the question we
are going to discuss this morning, let us examine it first, not wait for an
answer. Have we understood this fact, or is it mysterious?

I have got a question for you - I am not going to answer it - Why do you
separate living, your daily living from your ideas of the spiritual? Why do you
divide the two? Why do you separate the so-called religious life and the
monotonous, lonely, daily life? You answer my question.

First participant (P1): Because it needs a different kind of energy. The
spiritual life and the ordinary, mundane life involve two different kinds of
energy.

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K: That is, two different kinds of energy - one for the so-called spiritual, religious life, and another kind of energy for the mundane life. Now, I am not
going to answer the question. Let us find out if what you are saying is a fact.

You say that those people who are religious, who put on those funny robes,
need a kind of energy quite different from that of a man who travels around
and makes money or of the poor man in the village. Why do you divide the
two? May I put that question? Energy is energy, right? - whether it be electrical
energy or motor-driven energy or solar energy or the energy of a river in flood.

So why do you divide energy? Is it that the man with a beard, strange clothes,
has more energy, or that he is trying to concentrate his energy on a particular
issue? You understand, sir?

P2: There are various kinds of energy: one is the energy of thought, which
can be stilled; there is another, the energy of insight, which does not get
stilled, and there is yet another, the energy of mind which brings about
compassion and other things.

K: Certainly not.

P2: Pardon, sir?

K: Sir, we are talking it over, I am not laying down the law. Would you mind
listening.

P2: What is the relationship of the three aspects of energy, of thought, of
insight, and of mind?

K: You answer it. P3: May I sir?

K: Why not? You have a right to answer him.

P3: Just because we want to be comfortable, we divide energy into various
compartments. I do not think there can be many types of energy. Energy can
be only one.

K: Yes, I should have thought so myself. You see how we divide
everything. We divide spiritual energy, mental energy, the energy of insight,
the energy of thought.

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P3: Then it gets so complicated.

K: I know it complicates it, doesn't it? Why not be very simple? The energy
of the body, the energy of sex, the energy of thought, it is all energy. It is one
thing; only we divide it. Why? Find out, madam, why do we divide it?

P4: We are conditioned to divide it.

K: Yes, sir. Why are you conditioned? Why do you accept this division?

India-Pakistan, Russia-America - why do you divide all this? Tell me.

P5: The division is a reality.

K: Of course it is a reality. Why do you make obvious statements, sir?

P5: There is a difference between the truth and the reality. K: All right, what
do you call reality?

P5: What we see.

K: Therefore, you say that reality is right in front of you, right? - It is what
you see visually, optically. Is the tree a reality?

P5: Yes, sir.

K: All right, is what you think a reality?

P5: Sometimes we have to think. K: Is your wife a reality? I am asking you
a question: what do you mean by `my wife'?

P6: There is the psychological attitude that I have towards my wife and
there is the reality of my wife who has her own psychology.

K: Are you saying, sir - if I may put it in my own words - that the image of
your wife, the image which you have built up, is different from your wife; is that
it?

P6. It may happen sometimes that the image coincides with the reality of
what my wife is.

K: Have you looked at your wife? Have you seen her, enquired into her
ambitions, her anxiety, the pain of bearing children and all the rest of it? Have

60
you considered what the wife is? You have built an image about her, haven't you?

P6: Not necessarily.

K: I do not say necessary or unnecessary. It is a fact that you, if you are
married, or if you have some friend, build an image about her? Don't you? Not
necessarily, but it takes place, right?

P6: Yes, sir.

K: I am not trying to brow-beat you, sir, but each one has an image about
the other. You have an image about me, otherwise you would not be here. So
we create an image about another, depending on our temperament,
depending on our knowledge, depending on our illusions, depending on our
fantasies, and so on. We build an image about people: you have an image
about the prime minister, you have an image about the person who is
speaking to you. So we are asking a much deeper question, which is: can you
live a daily life without images?

P7: The images that we build up are generally in relationship with
ourselves. I build up an image around me. K: Yes, you have an image about
yourself.

P7: Yes, and if we can achieve that state which you have been talking
about - effacing the centre, the self - then the images would automatically
drop. Then one can live without the image.

K: So, when you talk about relationship, what do you mean by that word?

Sir, please, just listen quietly before you answer. Take a little breather. What is your relationship with another? You understand the word `relationship'? To be
related - I am related to him through blood: he is my father, my brother,
whatever it is. What do you mean by that word `relationship'? Carefully, sir, do
not be so quick; go slowly.

P7: I am not using the word `relationship' in that sense.

K: I am talking in that sense.

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P8: My care and concern for my friends, for my parents, for my children, including hatred - all that is included.

K: Do you really care? Or is it just an idea that you should care? If I may
politely ask you, what do you mean by the word `related' - not what meaning
you give to it, the meaning according to the dictionary.

P9: Contacts through the actual, not through words or images.

K: Sir, I am asking you a question; do not kick it around. What do you mean
by related? I am related to him - what does that mean?

P10: I think when I say I am related, I become a part of that. K: Are you a
part of your wife?

P10: Yes, partially.

K: Not total or partial. I am asking, what do you mean by the word `related'?

P11: Sir, being associated with day-to-day life, a network of expectations from
each other, duties and obligations.

K: Oh, God, you make it so very complex, don't you? I am just asking you
what you mean by that word per se - for itself - not what you think it should be.

P12: Close touch; getting attached; to have something in common. If I have
an image about you, then I have a relationship with you.

K: Do you have a relationship with me?

P12: Yes.

K: In what way? I am asking this seriously, sir; do not throw it aside.

P12: When I am looking at you without an image, I have relationship at that
moment with you.

K: You really have not thought about it, sir. You are just throwing out words.

P13: I think we have diverted from the original question.

K: I know, I know. So, sir, let us go back. I will come back to this word; it is
a very important word in our life.

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Why do we divide the spiritual and the mundane? We divide India against Pakistan; we divide various religions - Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and
so on; we divide, divide, divide. Why? Do not answer; just look at it, sir. We are
taking counsel together; we are looking at the same problem together - why do
we divide? Of course, there is a division between man and woman; or, you are
tall, I am short; you are brown or white, I happen to be black - but that is
natural, isn't it? I won't go into all that. So why do we divide?

P14: Because we have different ideas and different feelings and different
interests, and we want to stick to them. K: Why do you want to stick to them?

P14: Because we are selfish and we have self-interest.

K: Do not reduce everything to selfishness. Why do we divide, I am asking.

Who is dividing?

P15: The mind itself first divides into the inner perception and then the
outer perception.

K: Sir, is that your own experience, or are you quoting somebody?

P15: Half-half.

K: Could we please be serious for a while and face these facts? Why have
we divided the world around us - Pakistan, India, Europe, America, Russia and
so on? Who has made all these divisions?

P16: I think it is ego, it is thought.

K: Are you guessing? Why don't we look at the facts first? We have
different ideologies, different beliefs: one section of the world believes in

Jesus, the other section believes in Allah, some other section believes in the

Buddha, another section believes in something else; who has made all these
divisions?

P17: It is we, mankind.

K: That means you.

P17: Yes, sir.

K: You have divided the world.

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P17: Yes, sir.

K: Why? Why have you divided it?

P18: Fear and security.

K: Are you sure of what you are saying! P19: We divide ourselves because
we derive pleasure from this division.

K: If you are being killed by the other party, is that also pleasure? Don't
make casual remarks because this is not an entertainment; I am not here to
entertain you.

So if you will kindly listen, I am asking you a question: who has divided the
world into this? Has not man done this? You have done it - because you are a

Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh or some other sect, right? Man wants security, so
he says, I belong to the Buddhists: that gives me identity, that gives me
strength, that gives me a sense of place where I can stay. Why do we do this?

Is it for security; because if I lived as a Hindu in a world of Muslims, they would kick me around? Or if I lived as a Protestant in Rome, I would find it awfully
difficult because Rome is the centre of Catholicism, right? Who has done all
this - made this colossal mess? You have done it, he has done it, she has
done it. What will you do about it?Just talk about it? You don't want to act; you
say, Let us carry on.

P20: You have no intention to help us but, when we are here, we find that
you help us. How does that happen?

K: Too bad. I do not want to help anybody. It is wrong to help another,
except surgically, with food, and so on. The speaker is not your leader; we
have said it a thousand times all over Europe, America and here.

P20: You may not help us, but you make us understand things.

K: No! We are having a conversation together. In that conversation we may
begin to see things clearly for ourselves. Therefore nobody is helping you; it is
a conversation.

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P21: Yes, sir. K: Don't say, `Yes sir'. Did you hear what I said - that the speaker is not here to help you in any way? He is not your guru, you are not
his follower. The speaker says all that is an abomination.

P22: Why is there so much cruelty in nature that one being has to eat
another in order to survive?

K: A tiger lives on smaller things, right? So the big things eat little things.

And you are asking why nature is so cruel.

P22: No, sir. Why is there so much cruelty in nature?

K: First of all, why is there so much cruelty in nature? - that is natural,
perhaps. Don't say there is cruelty in nature. Why are you so cruel? Why are
human beings cruel?

P23: I want to get rid of my pain and sorrow; therefore, if anybody hurts me,

I also react or respond in a similar manner.

K: Sir, have you ever considered that all human beings suffer - all human
beings in the world, whether they live in Russia, America, China, India,

Pakistan, wherever it is? All human beings suffer.

P23: Yes, sir.

K: Now, how do you solve that suffering?

P23: I am interested in my own suffering.

K: What are you doing about it?

P23: I have come here to be enlightened by you.

K: What shall we do together, sir, together? Not I help you or you help me;
what shall we do together to get rid of sorrow?

P23: I don't know, sir.

K: Are you sure?

P23. Yes sir. K: No, no, answer carefully; this is a very serious question.

Are you sure you don't know how to be free of sorrow?

P23: Yes, sir. I do not know how to get rid of my sorrow.

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K. Just a minute, just a minute - remain in that state. Would you listen sir, please? He said a very serious thing. He said, Ì really don't know how to be
free of sorrow.' When you say, Ì don't know,' is it that you are waiting to know?

You understand my question?

P23: Yes, sir.

K: I don't know but I may be expecting some kind of answer. Therefore
when I am expecting, I step out of not knowing.

P23: What does it mean - stay in not knowing?

K: I will tell you what it means; I am not helping you. It is a very serious
matter when you say I am not helping you, because we have been helped for
so many thousands of years. Sir, when you say Ì don't know,' what does that
mean? I don't know what Mars is. He is an astro-physicist, and I go to him to
find out what Mars is.

P23: But I am not interested in Mars.

K: I know you are not interested in Mars; nor am I. But I am taking that as
an example. I don't know what Mars is, and I go to an astro-physicist and say,

`Sir, tell me what Mars is.' He tells me that Mars is various combinations of gas
and all the rest of it, and I say, `That is not Mars; your description of Mars is
different from Mars.' So I ask you, when you say Ì don't know,' what do you
mean by that - Ì don't know'? I am not waiting for an answer - which may be
crooked, which may be false, which may be illusory, therefore I am not
expecting, right? Are you in that state - Ì don't know'?

P24: We are stunned when we remain in that state. K: Remain in that state.

I don't know how to swim in the Ganga.

P25: I cannot do anything about it.

K: You cannot. When you do not know what is the cause of suffering, how it
can be ended - you don't know, right? So remain in that state and find out.

When you put a question you expect an answer, don't you? Be honest, be
simple. You expect an answer from a book, from another person or from some
philosopher - somebody to tell you the answer. Would you put a question and

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listen to the question? You understand what I am saying? When you put a question, would you wait for the question to reveal itself? I know if I can
understand the question properly, I will find the answer. So the answer may be
in the question.

That is, I put a question to you; don't try to find an answer, but find out if
you have understood the question - the depth of the question or the
superficiality of the question or the meaninglessness of the question. Would
you look at the question first? So I am suggesting, sir, if you put a question to
the speaker, the speaker says the question itself has vitality, energy, not the
answer because the answer is in the question. Right? Find out. The question
contains the answer.

P26: An intelligent mind can put a right question. I feel I am not intelligent at
all so how can I ask a right question?

K: You cannot. But you can find out why you are not intelligent. He is
intelligent, I am not. Why? Is intelligence dependent on comparison? You
understand, sir? Did you listen to my question?

P27: Many times we find an answer to our question, but we require
somebody else's approval of that answer.

K: So the answer is not important but the approval of another is important.

P28: The correct answer is important, and therefore approval of the correct
answer is required.

K: By whom? By your friends, who are equally unintelligent? By whom do
you want the approval - public opinion? the governor, the prime minister or
high priests? From whom do you want approval, sir? You don't think at all; you
just repeat, repeat.

P29: Sir, I remain with the situation Ì don't know', but it is tiresome.

K: Why is it tiresome?

P29: I try to find out.

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K: Don't try to find out. Here is a question: Why has man - why have we -
made such a mess of the world, mess of our lives, mess of other people's
lives? You understand, sir? It is a mess, it is a confusion; why? Listen to the
question, go into the question.

Have you ever held in your hands a marvellous jewel? You look at it, don't
you? You see the intricacies of it, how beautifully it is put together, what
extraordinary skill has gone into it, right? The silversmith must have had
marvellous hands. The jewel is very important; you look at it, you cherish it,
you put it away in the case and look at it, don't you?

P29: I want to have it.

K: Yes, you have it in your hand, sir; I am saying you look at it. Your
marvellous picture is painted by somebody or other and you look at it. It is in
your room, it is yours - you just do not hang it and forget it; you look at it. In the same way, if I ask you a question, look at it, listen to the question. But we are
so quick to answer it, so impatient. So I am suggesting, sir, look at it, take
time, weigh it, see the beauty of the question. It may be an utterly unimportant
question. Do it, sir. Then you will find that the question itself has a tremendous
energy.

P30: Why do we not change?

K: Why, sir? Why don't you change.

P30: I don't know, but I do not change.

K: Are you satisfied where you are?

P30: No.

K: Then change!

P31: Sir, I would like to ask a question, please. There is a teacher in a class
in which some boy is naughty. In order to put him right, he has to punish him.

Should he go through that exercise of punishment, which means violence?

K: What do you mean by the word `violence'? Don't be quick, sir. What do
you mean by violence? Hitting each other - would you call that violence? I hit

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you, you hit me back - that is a form of violence, isn't it? The grown-up person hits his child - that is a form of violence. Killing another is a form of violence, harassing another is a form of violence, trying to imitate another is a form of
violence, right? Would you agree to that? Imitating, conforming to the pattern
of another - that is violence, right? So I am asking you, how will you stop
psychological violence and physical violence? Don't say people; how will you
stop it?

P32: Sir, why is there variety in nature?

K: Thank god! Why do you bother about nature? Why are you concerned
with nature?

P32: I am seeing the variety.

K: Don't you see the variety here?

P32: I see it even outside.

K: What are you going to do about it? P32: I want to know why.

K: Sir, I would request you to study yourself first, know yourself first. You
know about everything outside you, but you know nothing about yourself. This
has been an old question. The Greeks have put it in their own way; the

Egyptians, the ancient Hindus have said too - know yourself first. Will you start
with that?

P33: I am always putting this question to myself. Why am I in the bondage
of physical pain? I keep on asking this question, but I don't get any answer.

K: You may be going to the wrong doctor. Sir, I know people who go from
doctor to doctor. They have plenty of money, so they are trotting around from
one doctor to another. Do you do that, or is it psychological pain?

P33: Physical as well as psychological.

K: Which is important? Which is a greater pain?

P33: When the physical pain is extreme, surely it is the physical pain that is
important.

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K: Sir, you have not answered my question. To what do you give importance?

P33: At the moment when I am suffering, I give importance to that.

K: You have not answered my question, sir, have you? I am asking you
which is more important - psychological pain or physical pain?

P33: What do you mean by psychological pain?

K: I will tell you. Pain of fear, pain of loneliness, pain of anxiety, pain of
sorrow and so on - all that is in the psyche. Now, to what do you give
importance - to the psychological or to the physical pain?

P33: Psychological. K: Do you, really?

P33: Yes, sir.

K: Are you being obstinate, sir? If you give importance to the psychological
pain, who is going to be the doctor?

P33: I.

K: What do you mean by Ì'? You are the pain. You are not different from
the Ì'. The Ì' is made up of pain, anxiety, boredom, loneliness, fear, pleasure -
all that is the Ì'.

P34: If I have understood that there is urgency to be aware all the time,
how is it that I remain in that state only for a very short while during the day?

K: Because you don't understand what it means to be aware.

Sir, here is a question. It is a fact that the various centres of the KFI [The

Krishnamurti Foundation, India] constantly and continuously stress and spread
that they are the centre of K's teaching. So now when we have the Buddha's
teaching, Christ's teaching and Krishnamurti's teaching, are these so-called
teachings of K going to meet the same fate as those of the Buddha and

Christ? Have you understood the question?

Sir, K has thought a great deal about the word `teaching'. We thought of
using the word `work' - ironworks, big building works, hydroelectric works, you
understand? So I thought `work' was very, very common. So we thought we

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might use the word `teaching', but it is not important - the word - right? The teachings of the Buddha nobody knows. I have asked them about the original
teachings of the Buddha, but nobody knows. And Christ may have existed or
may not have existed. That is a tremendous problem, whether he existed at
all. We have discussed with great scholars about that. I would not go into it.

And will K's teachings also disappear like the rest? You understand my
question?

P35: I have not said it.

K: Of course you have not said it; somebody has written it. Therefore it is
interesting. The questioner says - probably you also think - that when K goes,
as he must go, what will happen to the teaching? Will it go as the Buddha's
teachings, which have been corrupted? You know what is happening; will the
same fate await K's teaching? You have understood the question? It depends
upon you, not upon somebody else. It depends upon you - how you limit it,
how you think about it, what it means to you. If it means nothing except words,
then it will go the way of the rest. If it means something very deep to you, to
you personally, then it won't be corrupted. You understand? So it is up to you,
not up to the centres and information centres and all the rest of that business.

It depends upon you, whether you live the teachings or not.

P36: Has the truth its own power?

K: It has, if you let it alone.

P37: Sir, that question was put by me. May I clarify the question - what I
mean by that?

K: Yes, sir, what is the question?

P37: Now, my question is this: You have so many times repeated for 70
years that you do not convince anybody of anything, you are not a teacher,
you do not teach anything to anybody. Now I say that the centres of the KFI -
whose president you are - they invite the public, `Come here, here are the
teachings of Krishnamurti; you study here what he has to say. He has

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discovered so many things. Please come here and try to study.' You say you work as a mirror; when I use the mirror, does the mirror help me? K: Yes.

P37: It does help me, the light is helping me. Are these things not your
teachings? So there is no harm if you say you are teaching something, you are
clearing something. You yourself say that you work as a mirror; anything which
works as a mirror is definitely helping me.

K: Yes, sir.

P37: That is my question.

K: Sir, in all his talks K has emphasized the fact that he is merely a mirror -
right? - that he is merely a mirror reflecting what your life is. And he has also
said you can break up that mirror if you have seen yourself very clearly; the
mirror is not important. But what has happened throughout the world? They all
want to be on the bandwagon. You know what that means? All want to share
in the circus.

So I say, please don't bother,just listen to the teachings; if somebody wants
to form a little centre in Gujarat, let him do it, but he has no power to say that
he represents K, that he is a follower. He can say anything he likes, he is free
to do what he likes. We are not imposing on anybody that they should do this
or do that. Say, for instance, he starts by buying videos and all the rest of it
and collects a few friends in his house. That is his affair. We are not saying,

`Don't do this, do that.' If anybody did that, I would say, `Sorry, do not do it.'

But they like to do it, they like to be interpreters, gurus in their little way. You know the game you all play. So if you want to do that, you are welcome to do
it. The Foundation - unfortunately, I happen to belong to it, or fortunately - says you are free to do what you like - you understand, sir? Buy books, read books,
burn books of K, do anything you like. It is in your hands. If you want to live it, live it; if you don't want to live it, it is all right, it is your business. Is this clear once and for all?

P37: Yes, sir.

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K: The Foundation has no authority over your life, to tell you what not to do, or to say: `This is the centre from which all radiation goes,' like a radio station or a television station; we are not saying that. All we are saying is: Here is
something which may be original, or may not be original; here is something for
you to look at. Take time to read it; take time to understand it. If you are not
interested, throw it away; it does not matter. If you like to live that way, live it. If you do not, just drop it. Don't make a lot of noise around you. Do you
understand what I am saying, sir? Don't make a circus of it, a song-and-dance

- don't say that you have understood and will tell others all about it. Right, sir?

It is time to stop. Now, if I may ask, what have you got out of this morning's
talk, discussion? Nothing or something? I am just asking, sir, what has
flowered in you after this morning? Like a flower blooms overnight, what has
bloomed in you? What has come out of you?

P38: That we should have the habit of thinking together.

K: Did you really think together?

P38: Yes, I did.

K: Together - you and I - or were you talking to yourself?

P38: I was talking to myself also.

K: Yes. So I am just asking - you don't have to tell the speaker anything - I
am just asking politely, if I may: We have met for over an hour, talked together,
said many things according to our opinions; at the end of the journey this
morning, where are you? - where we started, where we ended, or is there a
new flowering? I am not going to say where you are. That will be impudence
on my part, right?

It is an extraordinary world, sir! You don't seem to realize it is a marvellous
world, the earth - beautiful, rich, vast plains, deserts, rivers, mountains and the glory of the land. This is an unique country. But human beings are set to kill
each other for the rest of their lives. If you go on like this, you will keep on
repeating the pattern: killing, killing, killing. You may repeat the most

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marvellous poems in Sanskrit (I do too), but all that is not worth a cent if you don't live it. That is all, sir.

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- Rishi Valley 1985 -

Chapter 8 2nd Dialogue With Teachers

Rishi Valley 7th December 1985

Krishnamurti (K): May I raise a very difficult question? How would you, if
you had a son here or a daughter, want to educate them, to bring about a
holistic life?

You've got so many students here - capable, intelligent. Through what
means, what kind of attitude, what kind of verbal explanation, would you
educate them in a holistic way of living? I mean by `holistic', whole, unbroken,
not splintered up, not fragmented, as most of our lives are. So my question is,
if I may put it to you, how do you bring about a holistic way of living, an outlook that's not fragmented in specializations?

First Teacher (T1): Sir, first we must be holistic ourselves.

K: That's understood, sir. But first of all, you are educators here, including
myself (if you will permit me). I am happy in Rishi Valley, I like the place, the
beauty of it, the hills, the rocks, the flowers, the shadows on the hills. I am one of the educators here; parents send me one of their children and I want to see
that they live a life that is whole. Whole means good.

`Good', not in the ordinary sense of that word; not the traditional word

`good: a good boy, a good husband - that's all very limited. The word `good'

has much greater significance when you relate goodness to wholeness. Good,
then, has the quality of being extraordinarily generous; good has that sense of
not wanting to hurt another consciously; good, in the sense that it is correct -
not only for the moment, correct all the time. Correct in the sense that it does
not depend on circumstances; if it is correct now, it will be correct a hundred
years later or ten days later. Correctness with goodness is not related to
environment, circumstances, pressures and so on. From that comes right
action. So, goodness and a holistic way of living go together. In what manner
am I going to see that the boy grows in goodness and a holistic way of living?

Do we rely on each other? Is it an individual problem, or is it a problem of the

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whole school, the whole body? So the action must be comprehensive - not that that gentleman thinks one way and I think another way about goodness; it
must be a cohesive action. Now, is that possible?

Sir, in the word `holistic' is implied not the orthodox, the organized, but that
quality of religion which we will go into presently. How am I, living here as an
educator, to bring this about?

T2: The first thing we have to do is to make the child feel secure in his
relationship. It seems to me that unless the child feels secure in his
relationship, with me and the place, nothing can happen.

T3: I want to find out whether what you say is really what I want to do. If I
feel that is really what I want to do, then I must find out what I mean by that,
what is the content of my feelings.

T4: Would it be necessary, if you and I are working together in the school,
to find out, not what I mean by that or what you mean, but rather find out if
there is something that is valid for all of us? Not because we stick to an idea or
come together around an idea, but in the investigation we say together, "This
is it."

K: Sir, do we understand what it means to live a holistic life? Or is it a
theory? T3: Sir, perhaps we merely understand by contrast. We see
fragmentation in ourselves...

K: If you see fragmentation or breaking up in yourself, then you have the
problem of how to get rid of it, how to be whole. I don't want a problem about it.

Then I have already broken it up.

T3: Despite that, the fact remains that we are fragmented.

K: Just a minute. I know I am fragmented; my whole thinking process is
fragmented. And also I know I mustn't make a problem of it because then
that's another fragmentation.

T3: My feeling of fragmentation is itself a problem - I don't make a problem;

I see a problem.

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K: I understand. I realize I am fragmented, but I don't want to make a problem of it.

T3: But, sir, doesn't it mean that when I see that I am fragmented, it is a
problem?

K: That's what I want to get at, which is - I see I am fragmented: I say one
thing and I do another, think one thing and contradict what I think. And I also
see very clearly that I mustn't make a problem of it.

T3: Perhaps I don't see that clearly.

K: That's what I want to discuss. If I make a problem of it, I am already
further fragmenting.

T3: But there is an in-between stage.

K: I don't want that. I am fragmented, broken up in different ways. If I make
a problem of it, saying to myself, I must not be fragmented, that very statement
is born out of fragmentation. Something born of fragmentation is another form
of fragmentation. But my brain is trained to make problems. So I must be
aware of the whole cycle of it. So what am I to do?

T1: You say to that, Ì should not make a problem of it.' Do we have a
choice, or is it automatic? When we see the fragmentation within us, we say, Ì
would not like to make a problem of it.'

K: See the truth, not Ì will not make a problem.' I see the fact that if I make
a problem of it, it's another fragmentation. That's all. I see it. I don't say, I
mustn't get rid of it or I must get rid of it, so what am I to do?

T1: Is there anything to be done in this case?

K: I am going to show you presently. Don't be so eager, if you don't mind
my saying so.

T1: The way I see it, there is nothing to be done except actually watching,
observing.

K: Just a minute, sir. Don't come to that conclusion. What am I to do?

T1: Observe.

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K: Don't tell me, sir. These are words. Seeing that I am fragmented, aware that whatever I do is another kind of fragmentation, what is left for me? You
don't put yourself in that position; you have already come to a conclusion. So
conclusion is another fragmentation. I have this question: Is there a way of
living holistically in which is involved the quality of a religious mind, deep
goodness, without any mischief, without any duality? Am I making it
complicated?

T5: No, sir.

K: Why not, sir? My whole being thinks dualistically. It's always in
opposition in the sense that I want to do this and yet I mustn't do it; I should do it, but I don't like to do it, and so on. It always takes opposing positions. So,
what is left for me? I see all this at a glance, or through analysis. And I see it is like that. Then my question is: what am I to do? Don't tell me: you should or
shouldn't - I don't accept anything from you; I am very sceptical by nature.

T1: You are asking the question: what am I to do? When there is
observation, no question arises.

K: Are you doing it?

T1: Yes.

K: Are you doing it? If you are not doing it and you say we must try, you are
in contradiction, therefore duality, therefore fragmentation, and hence no
goodness.

T6: As soon as you say or think about a holistic state of goodness, you are
already in contradiction.

K: No, you are not in contradiction. You are only putting it into words.

What's your action when you want to educate your student in this goodness?

The school has a certain reputation, a certain eclat - a feeling about it. And
there is a certain atmosphere in this valley. And I sent you my son, hoping that
you will help him to grow in this holistic way of life. I am communicating, I am
not contradicting.

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T5: It is in the way I posit the question that the contradiction arises.

K: I understand. We are trying to investigate the question, not lay down
laws about it. At least I'm not. I really want to find out what way I can help the
student. I may not be holistic. Don't say: first I must be holistic, and then I can teach. Then you are dead. Then that will take an eternity. If you say: I must
first be holistic, then you have stymied yourself. Sir, I am not saying anything. I really don't know what to do with these children whose parents want them to
join the IIT [Indian Institute of Technology] or something or other. And I've got
the tremendous opposition of society - the father, the mother, the grandfather,
wanting the boy to have a job and all that. How am I to bring this about? You
don't answer me.

T4: Krishnaji, I am not answering the question how am I to bring this about;

I'm looking at fragmentation.

K: What does that mean? Follow it out - I am fragmented, the boy is
fragmented. Right, sir?

T4: Right.

K: Then what's the relationship between me and the boy?

T4: We are learning together.

K: Don't use phrases quickly. What's my relationship with the student who
is fragmented like myself?

T7: I am not different from him.

K: Of course you are different from him - you teach maths; he doesn't know
any. Don't say you are not different from him.

T4: There is no relationship at all if I am fragmented.

K: please, sir, answer my question: I am fragmented, and I am your
student. What's our relationship? Or, is there any relationship at all? Or, are
we on the same level?

T5: It can only be a fragmented relationship.

K: What is actually my relationship?

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T5: There doesn't seem to be any.

K: That's all. How can fragments have a relationship?

T6: Why not?

K: Are you really asking me that question?

T6: Yes. K: You answer it, You ask me a question, and I am too eager to
reply to it. So it goes on between you and me: I answer it and then you counter
it; then I counter it, and so on. He asks me a question and he expects me to
answer it, and I say: I won't answer it because in the question itself is the
answer. So, can we look at the question and wait for it to flower? My question
is very, very serious. The question itself contains the answer if you let it flower, if you let it alone, not cover it immediately with a response. Your response is
already conditioned, already personal. So leave the question. If the question
has depth, significance, vitality, then the question unfolds.

Now, sir, is there truth? Does truth exist? You don't know, if you're honest;
so we leave the question. Let's look at the question, and the question begins to
unfold: Is there truth, or only active, vital, illusion? I won't go into that. If the question has depth, if the question has a sense of great vitality - because you
are asking the question in great inward searching - let the question answer
itself. It will if you leave it alone.

Now I am coming back to my original question.

T8: I have a child come to me. I am fragmented, he is fragmented. So there
is no relationship?

K: Are you sure there is no relationship, or are you just saying it?

T8: I think I am sure there is no relationship in the fragmented state, and I
find that any response that I give to the student would itself be a fragmented
response.

K: Yes. Stop there. Then, what will you do? Whatever relationship I have is
still fragmented. Is that a reality or a verbal statement?

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T8: It seems a reality to me. K: Either it is real in the sense that the microphone is real; that's not an illusion. The word microphone is not that. I
don't know if you get the quality of it.

So we must come back. What am I to do, sir? You tell me.

T8: Am I fooling myself that I can give a holistic education?

K: We are going to find out, you and I, whether it is possible to do it or not.

The first statement is: we are fragmented. Let's stick to that. We are both
fragmented, and I don't know what to do. What does that mean to you - I don't
know; I don't know what to do? Then, I must investigate. When I say, I don't
know, I really mean I don't know. Or, am I waiting for somebody else to tell me,
so I will know? Which is it?

T8: At the moment the latter.

K: Is there a state of the brain when it says: I really don't know? I am not
waiting for him to answer, or expecting someone else to tell me. All these are
states when I am waiting for an answer. But no one can answer this because
they are all fragmented. Therefore I am waiting, watching, looking, observing,
listening to the question. I don't know what to do. Then I ask myself, `What's
the state of my brain which says: "I don't know"?'

T5: At that point of time, it's not functioning.

K: Ì don't know'. Or are you waiting for it to know?

T5: Waiting for it to know.

K: Therefore, you are waiting to know; you will know. Therefore your brain
is not saying, Ì don't know.' It's all very logical, you know.

T3: The brain doesn't say it doesn't know.

K: That's it, that's the first thing - the brain never acknowledges or remains
in the state Ì don't know'. You ask me: `What is Ishvara?' and I promptly
answer. You have read, or you believe or you don't believe; Ishvara comes as
a symbol to you. But if you ask, `What is the element which created this?' it's a
tremendously interesting question: What is the beginning of life? What is the

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life in the seed that you plant? The life of man - what is the origin of that life, the very cell? I am not going into this now - it leads off somewhere else, it's too complicated.

So I don't know how to deal with that boy or with myself. Any action I do,
any movement of thought, is still out of fragmentation, right? So I leave it
alone. May I proceed?

T6: Please, sir.

K: What is love? Is it related to hate? If it is related, love then is still
fragmentation. Do you understand what I am saying, sir?

T6: Love is not the opposite of hate.

K: What is love? It has nothing to do with pity, sympathy - all the rest of it.

What is love? You don't know. Is that state of not-knowing love?

I don't know what to do with that boy or girl; we are both fragmented. I can
teach him mathematics, geography, history, biology, chemistry, psychiatry,
anything - but that's nothing. This demands much deeper enquiry, very much
deeper. So I say, what is it that is completely holistic? Certainly not thought -
thought is experience. It's certainly not sympathy, not generosity, not empathy,
not saying: `You're a nice chap.' Love has - what?

T5: Compassion.

K: Love, compassion - that is the only thing that's holistic. I'm just
discovering something for myself. I say, love isn't thought, love isn't pleasure.

Don't accept this; for god's sake that is the last thing you should do. Love is
utterly unrelated to hate, jealousy, anger - all that. Love is completely
unbreakable. It's whole and it has its own intelligence.

T5: I have heard you say this before in different ways.

K: To know. Can you ever say about a person - Ì know'? I know my wife?

T3: You shut off that person in some way.

K: Yes. If I say, Ì know you' - what do I know about you? So, to say Ì
know' is fragmentation,

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Sir, I asked a question, which is: can I help the student or talk to him? I know I am fragmented, he is fragmented. And I also know, have a feeling, that
love is whole, that compassion, love, have their own intelligence. I am going to
see if that intelligence can operate.

T6: You say that love has its own intelligence; you say that love is holistic,
it's not fragmented. Isn't that just an assumption?

K: It's not an assumption. Love is not an assumption - my god!

T6: Maybe it is, because I don't know.

K: Remain there. You don't know. Wait, find out; don't answer. I don't know
what the insides of a modern car are like. (I have, as a matter of fact, stripped
old cars.) So I want to learn about it. I go to a garage man and he teaches me
because I want to know how it works. I take the trouble; I take pains; I pay him,
if I have the money, or work with him till I know every part of that car. That
means I wish to learn, but I'm not sure you want to learn.

T2: But Krishnaji, this very wanting to learn...

K: Don't translate into fragmentation. I don't know how those cameras work,
and you say, learn about it. I ask him, and I become his apprentice; I watch
how he does it; I learn about it. Then I say: I know how to work that camera.

But human beings are not like cameras; they are much more complicated.

They are like a messy machine; and I want to know how their brain works.

Either I become a biologist, a brain specialist, or I study myself, which is much
more exciting. So I learn how my brain works - there is nobody to teach me.

T2: There may be - I listen to you.

K: I don't trust them. All their knowledge is from books or from their little
selves. So I say, I am going to investigate this whole way of living, not just
parts of it.

So let's come back: what am I to do or not do? The question is much
deeper than merely the boy and the girl whom I'm educating. It might be that I
have not really understood what it means to lead a holistic life; not understood
intellectually even.

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T2: If you mean intellectually, I would say yes.

K: No, no, no. Are you sure?

T2: I'm sure - intellectually.

K: So you have separated the intellect from the whole. Sir, listen; when you
say you have understood intellectually, it means just bananas.

T2: I don't just say; I've understood intellectually.

K: I say, sir, you are not listening. When one says, I understood
intellectually, it means absolutely nothing; when you say intellectually', that's
another fragment.

T2: Yes, sir.

K: So, I don't use the words: Ì understand intellectually.' That's a crime!

What am I, an educator at Rishi Valley, understanding partially, verbally, a
holistic way of living and knowing that the student and I are both fragmented -
what am I going to do or not do? Are you listening?

I'm here, I'm responsible to the parents for that girl or boy. They have sent
them here because you have a good reputation, you look after them and all
that. He comes along and tells me: It's all right, but what matters is a holistic
way of life, not intellectually but the whole psyche, the whole entity which is
now fragmented; if that can be made whole, then you have the most
extraordinary education. He tells me that and he goes away, and I don't know
what to do. I understand the verbal meaning of whole: not fragmented, not
broken up, not saying one thing, thinking something and doing quite the
opposite - all that is fragmentation of life. And I don't know what to do; I really don't. Deeply, profoundly, gravely, seriously, I don't know what to do. Am I
waiting for somebody or some book to tell me, or hoping something will
accidentally come along and give me, unfortunately, ìnsight'? I can't wait for
that, because the boy is growing up and kicking around.

So, what shall I do? I know one thing absolutely for certain: I don't know. All
my inventions, all my thinking have collapsed. I don't know whether you feel
that way. I don't know - so the brain is open for reception. The brain has been

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closed by conclusion, by opinion, by judgement, by my problems; it is a closed thing. When I say, I really don't know, I've broken something; I've broken the
bottle - I can drink the champagne.

I begin to find out - when the bottle is broken. Then I find out what love is,
what compassion is, and that intelligence that's born of compassion. It's
nothing to do with the intellect.

Sir, we never come to the point when we say: I don't know. Right? You ask
me about god, I've an immediate answer. You ask me about chemistry, out
comes the answer - the tap is open.

You see, I'm one of those idiots, sir; haven't read a thing, except...

T2: And doesn't think also.

K: The brain is like a drum; it's all tuned up. When you strike it, it gives the
right note.

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Chapter 9 3rd Dialogue With Teachers

Rishi Valley 17th December 1985

First Teacher (T1): Is a new mind the same as a good mind, a mind that is
flowering in goodness? If so, what is goodness? And, in particular, what is the
relationship of a new mind to an awareness of the wholeness of life? What is
the whole of life? Can we explore this in some depth?

KRISHNAMURTI (K): I wonder how you regard life. What do you consider
is the origin of life, the beginning of all existence? Not only of human beings,
but also the whole world, nature, the heavens and the stars? What is creation?

We are not asking what invention is. Invention is based on knowledge.

Inventing more and more, is naturally based on knowledge. And what is our
life in relation to the whole of it? Not in relation to a particular specialized brain but in relation to the whole world which is a total movement, including
ourselves, including humanity?

I would like to discuss that with you first. Then, is there a difference
between our physical brain - the biological thing which is inside the skull - and
the mind? Or does the brain contain the mind, or is the mind totally different
from the brain?

And the third question, or movement - I would prefer it to be a movement,
not a question - What would you call goodness, the flowering in goodness?

Not static goodness, but a movement in goodness?

T1: What is life?

K: Yes, what is life? Not life in a particularised form like the ape, the tiger,
the squirrel, the tree, all that. What is the beginning of life?

And the other question is: Does the brain contain the mind, or is the mind
totally divorced from the brain? If the brain contains the mind, then the mind is
part of matter - right? - part of the nervous responses. It is a physical
phenomenon. And the mind surely is something totally different.

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So, if the brain includes the mind, then it is part of our nervous, biological reactions of fear, sorrow, pain, pleasure, the total consciousness. Then it is
part of human creation. If the mind is part of an evolutionary process, then it is
part of time.

T2: May I ask a question?

K: Sir, you don't have to ask me.

T2: Through logic, suppose we find that the mind is different from the brain;
and logic itself is part of the brain?

K: Of course logic is part of the brain, and logic can come to a wrong
conclusion because it is still part of the brain.

So, what is life? What is the source of all this energy? What is the thing that
shoots out, making all this - the world, the earth, the mountains, the rivers, the
forests, the trees, the bear, the deer, the lion, the ape, the monkey, and us?

Is time involved in goodness? If time is involved in goodness, it is not
goodness. Please answer me. Do you understand my question?

T3: Sir, there doesn't seem at the moment to be a connection between the
two. When the scientists talk of the origin of things, I believe, the generally
accepted theory is that there was the big bang, an enormous explosion,
stemming perhaps from some primal energy, stemming perhaps from some
infinitesimal atom. And after this came the whole multiplicity of things, the
stars, the planets, the earth. There doesn't seem, at first sight, to be any
connection between that scientific explanation and goodness.

K: I am asking, sir, is time involved in goodness?

T3: Time is certainly involved in the evolution of things. That is obvious.

K: Is goodness part of time, cultivated or brought about through time?

T3: It doesn't seem, if one looks at the scientific view of the origin of things,
as if goodness is involved in that at all. It seems completely neutral - not good,
not bad, not anything.

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K: I understand that, but I am asking you a question - not a scientific question. The question is: If time is involved in the cultivation of goodness, is
that goodness at all?

T3: Seems to be a different order of question.

K: I am asking you a different question. What is goodness? What do you all
think is goodness?

T3: There seems to be a version of goodness which is usually opposed to
badness or evil...

K: Yes, the whole duality business. Go on, sir. What is goodness here?

What do you think is goodness?

T4: Virtue can be practised in time.

K: I am not talking about virtue. To me virtue is a cultivation.

T5: Sir, when we say he is a good man, we generally mean that he doesn't
harm others. He doesn't act always out of self-interest, gain... It is a quality
accumulated in time.

K: Is it? Is goodness the opposite of badness - if such a word exists? Is
good the opposite of bad? T5: Sir, what you mean by this question is, is
goodness a reaction to the bad and accumulated over time?

K: Yes, all that is implied in the question. One's reaction, one's education,
one's culture, environment; all that is tradition - what you read in books and so
on. Always the good and the bad. The good fighting the bad, always, from the
ancient Egyptians to modern society. There was always the good and the bad,
the good god and the bad god, the bad guy and the good guy.

I am saying, if I may, that if the good is born out of the bad, then it is not
good.

T3: It is usually looked at the other way round - that the evil is a fall from the
good.

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K: Sir, I am asking you, is the good related to the bad? Is good the opposite of bad or the reaction which had become the good? Do you understand my
question? Or has good nothing to do with, is totally divorced from, bad?

T5: Sir, while I would be able to answer the first question, I am not able to
answer the second. The first question being, is the good related to the bad? I
would say no, because if I try to be good, then automatically the bad
continues.

K: Sir, are you saying that the ideas of the whole evolutionary process of
the good and the bad, from the most ancient times, are totally mistaken?

That's what we are saying. Do you understand? Come on, sir.

T5: Yes. That's the implication.

K: That the good cannot fight the evil. Right? And throughout the history of
man, good is always fighting evil. Great paintings, great art, the whole of
human existence is based on this principle. And you and I come along and
say, `Look, there is something wrong with this. Good is totally different from
bad; there is no relationship between them; therefore they cannot fight. Good
cannot overcome evil.'

T3: There is no progression either.

K: Are we saying something totally revolutionary? Or is it some sort of
fantasy or imagination of ours?

T6: One of the problems we face is that we have grown used to using
particular words in a particular way.

K: Our whole religious conditioning, our whole religious literature, is full of it.

There is always hell and heaven, good and bad.

So are we saying something totally revolutionary? And is it true? Something
revolutionary may not be true. If it is true, it has nothing to do with the brain.

T1: The implication seems to be that goodness exists prior to man. It
seems to mean that goodness is inherent in the universe.

K: Maybe.

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T1: It seems to mean that.

K: We are asking the question in relation to what is the brain. What is the
mind? Can the mind penetrate the brain?

T1: Again this will imply that the mind is prior to the brain.

K: Of course. Let us call that ìntelligence' for the moment. Can that
intelligence communicate through the brain? Or can the brain not have any
relationship with that intelligence?

T7: Is the brain born of that intelligence?

K: I'm not prepared yet for that question. I am asking you the question.

Don't listen to me, sir. I'm not telling you; you and I are enquiring.

T1: I don't want an answer. K: Are you finding out for yourself? Or are you
listening to the man? Or is what the speaker says clearing a way for you to
see?

T1: This question seems to direct our attention to the universe. Or to
nature.

K: That's what we want to get at. Slowly. Is the universe - our idea of the
universe - different from us? It's all one movement - the stars, the heavens, the
moon, the sun; one tremendous energy. Our energy is very limited. Can that
limitation be broken down and we be part of that enormous movement of life?

T1: Would you call this enormous movement `nature'?

K: No, I wouldn't call it nature. Nature is part of us.

T1: This total movement.

K: Is there such a movement? Not Ì join the movement' because I am such
a small speck. I think I can be very clever; I think I can do this, do that. Can all that be broken down and be part of this enormous movement? I call this
goodness. I may be wrong. The window which is so narrow now must be
broken down, and then - no window at all. I don't know if I am expressing
myself.

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What then is life? Is it that immense intelligence which is energy, supreme, unconditioned, uneducated - in the sense of the modern term - something that
has no beginning and no end?

T5: Are you implying that creation does not involve time?

K: Invention involves time. Now they are trying to find a cure for cancer. All
the books, magazines talk about new methods, to cure cancer. The discovery
involves time and knowledge, built on what the previous person has
discovered. I learn from you, you learn from him. Creation cannot involve time.

I don't know if you see. T8: When you are talking about time, you mean
psychological time.

K: Of course, psychological time.

So goodness is not involved in time, therefore it is part of that intelligence
which is universal movement. I'm using words I may withdraw later.

Here I am then with a thousand students. As a good educator, I want to see
that they understand all this. Not intellectually, not theoretically, not as some
fantastic idea, but so that there is real transformation - no, not transformation -
so that a real mutation takes place in their lives.

T1: When you say ìmmense intelligence', the word ìntelligence' implies
some quality of awareness.

K: It may not.

T1: But then, what is the quality that is intelligent?

K: Probably it has no quality. It is intelligence. You see what you are doing.

You are giving it a virtue, a significance, so that you can understand it. I may
not be capable of understanding it. I don't know. You see, it may be something
incredible or it may be nothing at all. I can't approach this with a mind that
says, show me your qualifications, show me your degree.

So what am I to do after an educational conference? What am I to do, as
an educator, to bring about a mutation? Not a transformation; there is a
difference. Transformation means from one to another, from this to that.

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T9: Sir, can we come back to something we skipped over some time ago?

We talked about the ending of the limitation we are trapped in; that ending and
something else happening. Can we go back to that? For there seems to be
something in that we quickly skipped over. K: My brain has been educated,
has lived in tradition, whether ancient or modern tradition, my brain has been
mauled about, informed, beaten, by all the conditioning that has gone on for
centuries. Can that be broken down? Is that your question? Are you sure?

T9: Yes. All of those things that make it possible for this brain to have any
relationship with goodness.

K: Let's break it down to one word: consciousness. Can we?

T9: Yes.

K: Or `limitation' or `conditioning', Can all that be broken down? Not through
time - that is important. If I use time, I am back in the circle. Do you see that?

T9: Yes, sir.

K: So it must be broken down. Instantly. Not in comparison to, or in relation
to, time.

T10: Again, you mean psychological time.

K: Yes, of course. Psychological time is different from ordinary time. I don't
know if you see that. Do you? Time by that clock, time by the sun, time to
cover a physical distance. We don't know each other, but if we meet often, we
will. Or we may know each other instantly. So there is physical time and
psychological time. We are talking of psychological time. It takes time for a
seed to grow, for a child to become a man. We apply that kind of time to the
psyche. I am this, but I will be that; I am not brave, but give me time and I will
be. We are talking of time in the field of the psyche.

T1: Can the limitation of consciousness be broken?

K: That is the question. Can the limited brain - which is knowledge - break
down the whole field of the psyche? Can the brain break it down - the limited

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brain? However much it has evolved, this brain will always be limited. T1: By it's knowledge.

K: It is limited by its physical structure, by its very physical environment, by
its tradition, education, knowledge, pain, fear, anxiety. Can that limitation break itself down?

T9: Or, can anything else break it down?

K: Wait, sir. Stick to the one question. Can the limited brain break down its
own limitation?

T8: Sir, you said good is not related to bad.

K: Don't begin all that. Let's stick to the one question: Can the smallness of
the brain break down its own pettiness? Or is there another factor that will
break it down? God? Saviour? Vishnu? It can invent god and wait for him to
clear it up. Do I make myself clear? Both of you have put that question. After
putting that question, what is the state of your brain? After putting that
question, what has happened to your brain? The question is important, has
weight, has great significance. Tell me, what is the state of your brain after
putting that question? It is very important to find out.

T11: It is not depending on god. It is not sure.

K: Are you listening? You have been asking a question. It may be very
important, or it may not have any meaning at all. So, I am asking myself: What
is the state of your brain after putting that question?

T11: After listening to the question - `Can the petty brain break down its
own pettiness?' - what first arose in my brain was: I doubt it, I doubt whether
the petty brain can break down its pettiness.

K: Your brain is acting.

T11: Then it said, Ì don't know.'

K: But you are still saying something. Your brain is still active, saying, Ì
don't know, I'm waiting.' T11: Sir, why did you use the words, `You are
waiting?'

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K: Don't bother. Your brain is active. So what is happening?Just watch, sir.

One of them puts this question to me. How do I receive this question? How do

I interpret the question? If I interpret the question, I'm not listening to it. So, am I actually listening to the question? Or, as the question is put, do I immediately
respond to something, in which case I am not listening at all? It's a verbal
communication and I pass it by.

So, do I listen? That implies a certain quality of quietness - a thoughtless
movement, a thoughtless looking. What is the state of your brain when a
serious question is put? If your brain is at all active, then the question has no
meaning. Am I making myself clear?

Someone puts that question to me. What is important is how I receive it, not
the answer. I listen very carefully. The question is, `Can the narrow,
conditioned brain break down its conditioning?' I'm listening to the question.

I'm still listening to the question. Am I actually listening or just saying I'm
listening? If I'm actually listening, then there is no movement in the brain at all.

Of course, there is a nervous response - hearing through the ear, etc. But,
apart from the verbal communication, there is no other movement. I'm still
listening - that is the breaking down. I don't know if you know what I'm talking
about.

T. Because the brain is not acting.

K: Don't translate it. I don't know if I am making myself clear - that the very
state of listening is the state of ending of a certain thing.

So, is that happening? If that is happening to you, then how am I, as an
educator, to make those students, for whom I'm responsible, listen? How am I
to help them to listen to what I have to say? T6: There is a difficulty here.

When you explain something in person, it seems clear. But tomorrow
morning...

K: Then you haven't heard. You've heard the hiss of a cobra, haven't you? I
used to hear them very often when I walked alone here. I used to see them.

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And I know a cobra now. Even tomorrow, I will know a cobra. That is an actual fact. Right? Here some kind of sensitivity, watchfulness, alertness is needed.

How am I, as an educator, having heard all this, having absorbed it in my
blood - it's not as if I just heard you, therefore I learnt it, it's not just that - but after having heard all that, how am I to see that the students listen to me? You
make them listen to you in mathematics, learning a book, biology, history, etc.

Suppose I come to a class and I say, `Please sit down and listen.' They're
looking out of the window, they are pulling each other's hair. In that state of
mind, can they listen? Or, do I say, `Keep quiet for ten minutes'? But these ten
minutes are gone in battling; the brain saying, Ì must listen, who the hell is he,
asking me to listen?' And all the rest of it. So, how do I cajole, bring round
these students to listen?

Sir, how do you make your - I was going to say `victims' - listen to you?

How does a doctor or a psychiatrist make a patient listen to him? The patient
is all the time concerned about getting cured. He has a particular disease,
mania, etc., he wants to be free of it. Tell him what to do and he will do it. Here it is not like that. We are all equals; there is no doctor, nobody to tell you. We
are in a state of listening, of enquiry. How do we persuade one person to listen
to another? Answer the question.

T5: Either of the two ways, sir. Either I entertain him, or I force him.

K: Yes. I don't want to do either - force, fight, or beat him up. T5: Or
entertain?

K: It is all the same. I want them to listen, so that it is all part of their blood.

So, how do we proceed, sir?

T8: Must I not listen to them? To what they have to say?

K: They have very little to say, sir. They're quarrelling, muttering, saying,

`Give me this, that,' etc.

So, I am asking you as educators, `How do I bring them round to actually
listening to what I have to say?' See how long it has taken us to listen to each
other. You are willing to listen, to find out. You think K has something to say,

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we have invited him here. Therefore, there is communication already taking place. But with those students it is different. They are forced to come here,
their parents praise Rishi Valley. They come after swallowing the bitter pill,
coated with sugar, of course. And so this goes on. Here, with you, it is
different. You don't want to do a thing to persuade them. It is marvellous. Put
that question to yourself and see what you can do.

T9: Sir, I think it is obvious that we cannot answer this question; and yet
this seems to be central to all that we mean to do. That actually is quite a good
summary of the conference.

K: I understand what you are saying.

T1: Perhaps here we come back to the beginning - that it requires an action
which is creative.

K: Now you've said it. Leave it there. Work it out. That creativity is not born
of knowledge or previous experience. Keep that in mind. If it makes use of
knowledge, then it becomes invention, just a new way of doing the same thing.

We are asking a very, very serious question. I think it may be that we are all
so terribly informed - about everything. Maybe we are so educated that there is
no space for anything new to take place; full of memories, remembrances. All
that may be a hindrance. Now, don't ask, `How am I to get rid of it?' Then we
come back to the same thing.

Suppose you tell me I'm a liar. And I give you all the reasons why I've lied -
which is another lie. I hear the word `lie' and I react. I think I'm an honest man.

I may not be, but I think I am. Those are two different things. Or, I think I am a
truthful man and an incident takes place which makes me untruthful. That
instant of discovery - seeing I'm a liar - changes everything. That is my point. It changes me so that I'm no longer dishonest. I've experimented with this. So it
is possible. No, I can't even say that.

Can I listen to you when you tell me I'm a liar and not bring up all the
reasons? In that act of listening, there is a breakdown.

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T3: Surely if the statement is true, there is a breakdown. If I'm not a liar, then there isn't.

K: No, sir. The word `lie' is good enough for me. You understand? I know
the reasons why I've lied: a little bit of cowardice. I lied because I don't want
them to discover this or that. And when you call me a liar, then I see the actual
fact that it is so. I don't go into all the reasons why I've lied. And you tell me,

`You are that.' And I listen to you without saying whether you are right or
wrong, not putting up a barrier. In that very instant when I am listening without
barriers, the thing goes. Something happens. That is the only action, which is
inaction.

T3: But the statement itself may be false.

K: May be false. But good enough for me to see that there is some truth in
it.

Now, where are we after four days? Are we together? What have you
absorbed? And is that absorption common to us all, or are we trying to unify all
the schools - being but parts - trying to put them together? Which means that
they will always be apart. Or is there a feeling that we are all one, so that our
education is not based on American, Indian or English conditions?

So, are we merely a body to supply demands? Or are we to bring about a
different human quality, a different human activity of the brain? Are we united
in that? Are we together in this? Are we together so that nothing can break us
apart? From that, an action which is totally different can take place.

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- Madras 1986 -

Chapter 10 2nd Public Talk

Madras 1st January 1986

ON A WEEK-DAY, to see so many people seems rather absurd, doesn't it?

Last time we met here - it was Saturday - we talked about what is love. You
may remember if you were here. We are going to enquire together - and I
mean together - into this whole problem; it's very, very complex. If you don't
mind, you have to think - not just agree; you have to exercise your brain,
thinking it out. So we are going to enquire together into this problem of what is
love. Together. You and I are walking up the same street; you are not just
following the speaker; you are not saying: `Yes, this sounds good; so do the

Upanishads and so does the Geeta,' and all that bilge.

First of all, one has to doubt, be sceptical of your experiences, conclusions,
thoughts. Doubt. Question - not accepting a thing from any book, including
mine; I'm a passer by, not important. And we are going to enquire together to
see what is clear, and what is not clear. We are together examining, doubting,
never accepting what the speaker has to say. This is not a lecture to guide, to
instruct, to help; that would be too stupid. We've had that kind of help for
generations upon generations and we are what we are now.

We must start from what we are now, not what we have been in the past or
what we will be in the future. What we shall be in the future is what we are
now. Our greed, our envy, our jealousy, our great superstitions, our desire to
worship somebody - this is what we are now. So we are together walking up a
very long street - it requires energy - and we are going to go into this question:

What is love? To enquire very deeply, very profoundly into it, we must also
enquire: What is energy? Every gesture you make is based on energy. While
you are listening to the speaker, you are exercising energy. To build a house,
to plant a tree, to make a gesture, to talk, all these require energy. The crow
calling, the rising and setting sun, all this is energy. The cry of the baby out of 98
the womb is part of energy. To play a violin, to speak, to marry, have sex -
everything on earth requires energy.

So we start: what is energy? This is one of the questions of the scientists.

And they say: Energy is matter. It may be matter, but previous to that, what is
primordial energy? What is its origin, the source? Who created this energy?

Careful. Don't say `god', and run away with that. I don't accept god; the
speaker has no god. Is that all right?

So what is energy? We are enquiring, not accepting what the scientists
have to say. And, if you can, abandon all that the ancient peoples have said;
leave it at the roadside. We'll take a journey together.

Your brain, which is matter, is the accumulated experience of a million
years, and all that evolution means energy. And so I'm asking myself - you're
asking yourself is there an energy which is not contained or stimulated or held
within the field of knowledge, that is, within the field of thought? Is there an
energy which is not put together by thought?

Thought gives you great energy: to go to the office every morning at nine
o'clock; to earn money, a better house. Thinking about the past, thinking about
the future, planning for the present, gives tremendous energy: you work like
blazes to become a rich man. Thought creates this energy. So then we have to
enquire into the very nature of thought. Thought has planned this society
which has divided this world into communist, socialist, democrat, republican;
the army, the navy, the air-force - not only for transportation, but also to kill. So thought is very important in our lives because without thought we can't do
anything; everything is contained in the process of thought.

So what is thinking? You work it out, don't listen to me. The speaker has
talked about this a lot, so don't go back to my books, don't say, I've heard all
this before. Here you forget all the books, all the things you have read, for we
must approach this each time anew.

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Thinking is based on knowledge. And we have accumulated tremendous knowledge: how to sell each other, how to exploit each other, how to create
gods and temples, and so on.

Without experience there is no knowledge. Experience - knowledge stored
in the brain as memory - is the beginning of thought. Experience is always
limited, because you are adding more and more to it. So experience is limited,
knowledge is limited, memory is limited. Therefore, thought is limited. The
gods whom thought has created - your gods, your thinking - will always be
limited. And from this limitation we try to find the source of energy - you
understand? - we try to find the origin, the beginning of creation.

Thought has created fear. Right? Aren't you frightened of what may happen
later - losing your job, not passing your exams, not climbing the ladder? And
you're frightened of not being able to fulfil, of not being able to stand alone, of not being a strength unto yourself. You always depend on somebody, and that
breeds tremendous fear.

It's one of the daily facts of our life that we are frightened people. And fear
arises because we want security. Fear destroys love; love cannot exist where
fear is. Fear on its own is a tremendous energy. And love has no relationship
to fear; they're totally divorced. So, what is the origin of fear? To question all
this is to be alive, to understand the nature of love. Thinking has created fear -
thinking about the future, the past, of not being able to adjust quickly to the
environment, what might happen: my wife might leave me or might die; I'll be a
lonely man; what will I do then? I have several children; so I had better remarry
someone or other; at least she'll look after my children - and so on. This is
thinking of the future, based upon the past. So thinking and time are involved
in this - thinking about the future, the future being tomorrow. And thinking
about that causes fear. And so time and thought are the central factors of fear.

So time and thought are the principal factors of life. Time is both inward - I
am this, I will be that - and outward. And time is thought; they are both
movements.

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Then what place have death, pain, anxiety, suffering, loneliness, despair, all those terrible things I've gone through? - All the travail that man goes
through - is that all our life? I'm asking you: Is this all your life?

This is your life. Your consciousness, if you examine it very carefully, is
made up of its content: what you think, your tradition, your education, your
knowledge, your time, your fears, your loneliness. That is what you are. It's a
fact that your suffering, your pain, your anxiety, your loneliness, your
knowledge, are shared by every human being. Every human being on this
earth goes through sorrow, pain, anxiety, quarrels, coaxing, wanting this, not
wanting this. So you are not an individual; you are not a separate soul, a
separate atman. Your consciousness, which is what you are - not physically,
but psychologically, inwardly - is the consciousness of mankind.

We are trying to find out, to enquire into, what is life. We're saying that as
long as there is fear of any kind, the other cannot exist. If there is attachment
of any kind, the other cannot exist - the other being love. So we are going to
see what the world is and enquire into what is death. Why are we all so
frightened of death? You know what it means to die; haven't you seen dozens
of people killed, or hurt? Have you ever enquired very deeply into what is
death? It's a very important question, as important as what is life. We said life
is all this rot - knowledge, going to the office every day at nine o'clock, etc.,
battling, not wanting this, wanting that. We know what living is, but we have
never enquired seriously into what is dying.

What is dying? It must be an extraordinary thing to die. Everything is taken
away from you: your attachments, your money, your wife, your children, your
country, your superstitions, your gurus, your gods. You may wish to take them
into the other world, but you can't. So death says, `Be totally detached.' That's
what happens when death comes: you have no person to lean on. Nothing.

You can believe that you will be reincarnated. That's a very comfortable idea,
but it's not a fact.

We are trying to find out what it means to die, while living - not committing
suicide; I am not talking about that kind of nonsense. I want to find out for

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myself what it means to die, which means, can I be totally free from everything that man has created, including myself?

What does it mean to die? To give up everything. Death cuts you off with a
very, very, very sharp razor from your attachments, from your gods, from your
superstitions, from your desire for comfort - next life and so on. I am going to
find out what death means because it is as important as living. So how can I
find out, actually, not theoretically, what it means to die? I actually want to find out, as you want to find out. I am speaking for you, so don't go to sleep. What
does it mean to die? Put that question to yourself. While we are young, or
when we are very old, this question is always there. It means to be totally free,
to be totally unattached to everything that man has put together, or what you
have put together - totally free. No attachments, no gods, no future, no past.

You don't see the beauty of it, the greatness of it, the extraordinary strength of
it - while living to be dying. You understand what that means? While you are
living, every moment you are dying, so that throughout life you are not
attached to anything. That is what death means.

So living is dying. You understand? Living means that every day you are
abandoning everything that you are attached to. Can you do this? A very
simple fact, but it has got tremendous implications. So that each day is a new
day. Each day you are dying and incarnating. There is tremendous vitality,
energy there because there is nothing you are afraid of. There is nothing that
can hurt. Being hurt doesn't exist.

All the things that man has put together have to be totally abandoned.

That's what it means to die. So can you do it? Will you try it? Will you
experiment with it? Not for just a day; every day. No, sir, you can't do it; your
brains are not trained for this. Your brains have been conditioned so heavily,
by your education, by your tradition, by your books, by your professors. It
requires finding out what love is. Love and death go together. Death says be
free, nonattached, you can carry nothing with you. And love says, love says -
there is no word for it. Love can exist only when there is freedom, not from

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your wife, from a new girl, or a new husband, but the feeling, the enormous strength, the vitality, the energy of complete freedom.

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Chapter 11 3rd Public Talk

Madras 4th January 1986

WILL

YOU

KINDLY participate in what he's talking about? Will you not only
follow it, but together participate in it, not just think about it or casually pay
attention to it? One or two things must be made very clear. This is not a
personality cult. The speaker has an abomination of all that; everything he is
saying is contradicted if you personally worship an individual, or make him into
a god. What is important is to listen to what he has to say, share it; not only
listen, but actually participate in what he's saying.

We have talked about life, the very complexity of life, the beginning of life.

What is life? What is the origin of all this - the marvellous earth, the lovely
evening and the early morning sun, the rivers, the valleys, the mountains and
the glory of the land which is being despoiled? If you say the origin of all this is

`god', then it's finished; then you can trot along quite happily because you've
solved the problem. But if you begin to question, doubt, as one should, all
gods, all gurus - I don't belong to that tribe - if you begin to question all that
man has put together through a long evolution down the corridors of history,
you find this question asked: What is the beginning? What is the origin? How
has all this come about? I hope you're asking this question; don't just listen to
the speaker, but share it, tear it to pieces. Don't please, accept anything he
says. He's not your guru; he's not your leader; he's not your helper. This is the
platform, that is the beginning of this talk.

This is a very serious talk, and unless your brain is actually active, one is
afraid that you won't be able to follow. It would be useless for you and for the
speaker to listen to a lot of words, but if we could together take a very long
journey, not in terms of time, not in terms of belief or conclusions or theories,
but examine very carefully the way of our lives, fear, uncertainty, insecurity
and all the inventions that man has made, including the extraordinary
computers - where are we at the end of two million years? Where are we
going, not as some theory, not what some wretched book says, however holy

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it is, but where are we all going? And where have we begun? They're both related to each other: where are we going, where we began. The beginning
may be the ending. Don't agree. Find out. There may be no beginning and no
ending, and we're going to investigate into that together.

From the beginning of time, right down to the present day, man has always
thought in terms of religion. What is religion? Man has always sought
something more than this world. Men have worshipped the stars, the suns, the
moons and their own creations; there has been tremendous endeavour, effort,
energy, spent on ancient temples, mosques and the churches, of course. They
have spent tremendous energy on this. What is the spirit of man that has
sought something beyond the world, beyond the daily agony; the travail, work,
going to the factory, to the office, and climbing the ladder of success, making
money, trying to impress people, trying to command? Are you agreeing to
this? It is a fact whether you agree or not. They're all seeking power in some
form; they want to be at the centre of things - in Delhi, or here, or in other
places. They want to be there.

We're asking: What is religion; what has made man give enormous
treasures to a temple; what made him do all this? What was the energy that
was given to all this? Was it fear? Was it seeking a reward from heaven, or
whatever you like to call it? Was seeking a reward the origin? You want a
reward; you want something in exchange; you pray three or five times a day
and you hope in return that some entity will give you something, from a
refrigerator to a car to a better wife, or better husband, or you wait for grace,
something that you can hope for, cling to. This has been the history of all
religions. God and money are always together; the Catholic Church has
tremendous treasures. You have it here, too, in your various temples, puja and
worship and all that triviality; all that is really nonsense. We are trying to find out by enquiring very, very deeply what religion is; it is obviously not all this
moneymaking stuff. We are asking: What is that, which is nameless, which is
the supreme intelligence, which has no relationship with all our prayers, with
all our gods, temples, mosques, churches? That's all man-made. Any

105
intelligent man must put all that aside and not become cynical, not become merely sceptical, but have a brain that's really active, a brain that enquires into everything, not only the outside world. Have we got a brain that is enquiring
into its own thoughts, into its own consciousness, into its own pains,
sufferings, all the rest of it? Have we got such a brain?

Here, we must separate the brain from the mind. The brain is the centre of
all our nerves, our knowledge, all our theories, opinions, prejudices; from
college, university, all that knowledge is gathered in the skull. All the thoughts, all the fears are there. Is the brain different from the mind? If you seriously pay attention to what the speaker has asked, is there a difference between the
brain, your brain, what is inside the skull with all the knowledge you have
gathered, not only you, but your forefathers and so on, for two million years,
which is all encased in there - is there a difference between that brain and the
mind? The brain will always be limited. Don't agree; this is much too serious.

And is the mind different from this, from my consciousness, from my daily
activities, from my fears, anxieties, uncertainties, sorrow, pain and all the
theories which man has gathered about everything? The mind has no
relationship with the brain; it can communicate with the brain, but the brain
cannot communicate with it. Don't agree, please, that's the last thing to do.

The speaker is saying the brain is the keeper of all our consciousness, of our
thoughts, of our fears, and so on, and on, and on. All the gods, all the theories
about gods and the unbelievers, it's all there. Nobody can dispute that unless
he's a little bit odd. This brain, which is conditioned by knowledge, by
experience, by tradition, cannot have any communication with the mind which
is totally outside the activity of the brain. That mind can communicate with the
brain, but the brain cannot communicate with it because the brain can imagine
infinitely; the brain can imagine the nameless; the brain can do anything. The
mind is too immense because it doesn't belong to you; it's not your mind.

We are going to investigate - together, please bear in mind always together

- not only the nature of religion, but also the computer. You know what the
computer is? It's a machine; it can programme itself. It can bring about its own

106
computer; the father computer has its own son computer which is better than the father. You don't have to accept this; it's public; it's not something secret,
so watch it carefully. That computer can do almost anything that man can do. It
can make all your gods, all your theories, your rituals; it's even better at it than you will ever be. So, the computer is coming up in the world; it's going to make
your brains something different. You've heard of genetic engineering; they're
trying, whether you like it or not, to change your whole behaviour. That is
genetic engineering. They are trying to change your way of thinking.

When genetic engineering and the computer meet, what are you? As a
human being what are you? Your brains are going to be altered. Your way of
behaviour is going to be changed. They may remove fear altogether, remove
sorrow, remove all your gods. They're going to; don't fool yourself. It all ends
up either in war or in death. This is what is happening in the world actually.

Genetic engineering on the one side and the computer on the other, and when
they meet, as they're inevitably going to, what are you as a human being?

Actually, your brain now is a machine. You are born in India and say: Ì'm an

Indian.' You are encased in that. You are a machine. Please don't be insulted.

I'm not insulting you. You are a machine which repeats like a computer. Don't
imagine there is something divine in you - that would be lovely - something
holy that is everlasting. The computer will say that to you too. So, what is
becoming of a human being? What's becoming of you?

We have also to enquire - this is a very serious subject, don't agree or
disagree,just listen - into what is creation. Not the creation of a baby, that's
very simple, or the creation of a new something or other. Invention is totally
different from creation. Invention is based on knowledge. The engineers can
improve the jet; the movement is based on knowledge and the invention is
also based on knowledge. So we must separate invention from creation. This
requires your total energy, your capacity to penetrate. Invention is essentially
based on knowledge. I improve the clock; I have a new gadget. All invention is
based on knowledge, on experience; inventions are inevitably limited because
they're based on knowledge. Knowledge being ever limited, inventions must

107
always be limited. In the future there may be no jets, but something else that will go from Delhi to Los Angeles in two hours; that's an invention based on
previous knowledge which has been improved step by step, but that's not
creation.

So what is creation? So what is life? Life in the tree, life in the little grass -
life, not what the scientists invent, but the beginning of life - life, the thing that lives? You may kill it, but it's still there in the other. Don't agree or disagree, but see that we are enquiring into the origin of life. We are going to enquire
into the absolute - something that's really marvellous. It's not a reward; you
can't take it home and use it.

What is meditation to you? What is meditation? The word, in common
language in the dictionary, means: to ponder over, to think over and to
concentrate, to learn to concentrate, not let your brain wander all over the
place. Is that what you call meditation? Be simple, be honest. That is what?

Every day taking a certain period and going to a room and sitting down quietly
for ten minutes or half an hour to meditate? Is meditation concentration,
thinking about something very noble? Any conscious effort to meditate is part
of your discipline of the office, because you say: If I meditate, I'll have a quiet mind, or I'll enter into another state. The word `meditation' also means to
measure, which means compare. So your meditation becomes mechanical
because you are exercising energy to concentrate on a picture, an image, or
an idea, and that concentration divides. Concentration is always divisive; you
want to concentrate on something, but thought wanders off; then you say you
mustn't wander off, and you come back. You repeat that all day long, or for half
an hour. Then you come off it and say you have meditated. This meditation is
advocated by all the gurus, by all the lay disciples. The Christian idea is: Ì
believe in God and I'm sacrificing myself to God; therefore, I pray to save my
soul.' Is all this meditation? I know nothing about this kind of meditation; it's
like an achievement; if I meditate for half an hour, I feel better. Or is there a
totally different kind of meditation? Don't accept anything that the speaker
says, at any price. The speaker says that that is not meditation at all. That's

108
merely a process of achievement. If one day you have not been able to concentrate, you take a month and say: `Yes, I've got it.' That's like a clerk
becoming a manager. So is there a different kind of meditation which is not
effort, which is not measurement, which is not routine, which is not
mechanical? Is there a meditation in which there is no sense of comparison, or
in which there is no reward and punishment? Is there any meditation which is
not based on thought which is measurement, time, and all that?

How can one explain a meditation that has no measurement, that has no
achievement, that doesn't say: Ì'm this, but I'll become that'? `That' being god
or superangel. Is there a meditation which has nothing to do with will - an
energy that says: Ì must meditate'? Is there a meditation which as nothing to
do with effort at all? The speaker says there is. You don't have to accept it. He
may be talking nonsense, but he sees logically that the ordinary meditation is
self-hypnosis, deceiving oneself. And, when you stop deceiving, stop all that
mechanical process, is there a different kind of meditation? And unfortunately,
the speaker says: Yes. But you can't get at it through effort, through giving all
your energy to something. It is something that has to be absolutely silent. First
of all, begin very humbly, very, very humbly and, therefore, very gently and,
therefore, no pushing, driving, saying: Ì must do this.' It requires a tremendous
sense not only of aloneness, but a sense of - I mustn't describe it to you. I
mustn't describe it because then you'll go off on descriptions. If I describe it,
the description is not the real. The description of the moon is not the moon,
and a painting of the Himalayas is not the Himalayas. So, we'll stop describing.

It's for you to play with it, or not play with it, going your own way with your own peculiar achievements through meditation, reward and all the rest of it. So, in
meditation which is absolutely no effort, no achievement, no thinking, the brain
is quiet; not made quiet by will, by intention, by conclusion and all that
nonsense; it is quiet. And, being quiet, it has infinite space. Are you waiting for me to explore? And you will follow what I explain? What kind of people are
you? So, is your brain ever quiet? I'm asking you. Your brain is thinking,
fearing, thinking of your office work, of your family, what they will do, your
sons, your daughters; thinking, which is time and thought. Is your brain ever

109
quiet? Not made quiet by drugs, whiskey and various forms of drugging yourself. You drug yourself when you believe. You drug yourself and say:

`Yes, this is perfectly right, the Buddha has said that, therefore it must be right.

You're drugging yourself all the time; therefore, you have no energy of that
kind that demands the penetration of something immense.

So, we're now going back to find out what creation is. What is creation? It
has nothing to do with invention. So what is creation, the origin, the beginning?

What is life? Tell me what you think of it. What is life? Not going to the office
and all the rest of it, sex and children, or no children but sex and so on and so
on and so on. What is life? What gives life to that blade of grass in the
cement? What is life in us? Not all the things that we go through - power,
position, prestige, fame, or no fame, but shame; that's not life; that's part of our mishandling of life. But, what is life?

Why are you listening to me? What makes you, if you are listening at all,
listen to the man? What is the motive behind your listening? What do you
want? What's your desire? Behind the desire there is a motive. So what is
desire? Desire is part of sensation, isn't it? I see this beautiful clock or ugly
clock; it's a sensation. The seeing brings about a sensation. From that
sensation, thought comes and makes an image of it. That is, I see this clock,
rather nice, I would like to have it. The sensation of seeing, then thought
coming and making an image of that sensation; at that moment, desire is born.

It's very simple.

Is there a brain, your brain, which is not muddied up, muddied by
environment, by tradition, by society and all the rest of it? So what is the origin of life? Are you waiting for me to answer it? This is much too serious a subject
for you to play with, because we are trying to enquire into something that has
no name, no end. I can kill that bird; there is another bird. I can't kill all birds; there are too many of them in the world. So, we are enquiring into what makes
a bird. What is creation behind all this? Are you waiting for me to describe it,
go into it? You want me to go into it? Why

(From the audience: To understand what creation is.

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Why do you ask that? Because I asked? No description can ever describe the origin. The origin is nameless; the origin is absolutely quiet, it's not whirring about making noise. Creation is something that is most holy, that's the most
sacred thing in life, and if you have made a mess of your life, change it.

Change it today, not tomorrow. If you are uncertain, find out why and be
certain. If your thinking is not straight, think straight, logically. Unless all that is prepared, all that is settled, you can't enter into this world, into the world of
creation.

It ends. (These two words are hardly audible, breathed rather than spoken.)

This is the last talk. Do you want to sit together quietly for a while? All right,
sirs, sit quietly for a while.

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- Longer, Unedited Versions -

Chapter 4

RAJGHAT 1ST PUBLIC TALK 18TH NOVEMBER 1985

I hope you can all hear.

I wonder why you are all here. If you are asked that question seriously,
what would be your answer? Why we are all gathered here on the banks of the

Ganga - of course, sacred river - and therefore partially for that reason you are
here. And I wonder what other reasons you have to come and listen to this
person. Is it merely reputation? Is it merely that you have heard this man talk
several times before; therefore you say, let's go and hear him? What is the
relationship of what he says to what you do? You understand my question?

What is the relationship of what he says and what you do? Are they two
separate things? Or, you just listen to what he has to say, and carry on your
daily life? You understood our question?

So, we two are going to talk over, together, not some abstract theoretical
problem, but rather we are going to talk over together, like two old friends,
sitting under these trees, our daily life, which is far more important than some
theoretical, very knowledgeable abstract problems. We may come to those
much later. So, shall we, as two old friends, talk over our problems? We have
got so many problems - how to meditate, which guru to follow, if you are a
follower, what kind of practice you should do, what kind of daily activity you
should go through; and so on, and also what is our relationship to nature - all
the trees, the rivers and the mountains, the plains and the valleys - what is our
relationship to nature? To a tree, to a flower, to a bird that passes by, and what
is our relationship with each other - not with the speaker - but with each other,
your wife, your husband, your children and all the environment, as
government, neighbour, community and so on? What is our relationship to all
this? Or, are we so isolated, so self-concerned, so intensely interested in our
own way of life? Please, I am asking - we are asking all these questions as
two friends. The speaker means as 'friends', not as a guru. You have had

112
enough gurus in this country (they are really not worth it). And the speaker has no intention whatsoever to impress you, to tell you what to do, or to help you.

Please bear this in mind right through the talks: he has no intention
whatsoever to help you. I will tell you why - the reason, the logic of it.

You have had a great many gurus, thousands of them, a great many
helpers, Christian helpers, Hindu, Buddhist, every kind of leader, not only
politically, but so-called religiously (I do not know what that word means at the
moment, we will go into that word) and you have had leaders of major kind and
the minor, and where are you at the end of this long evolution of two million
years old? Where are you? Where are we - you, and all of us here? We are
supposed to have lived on this earth two and a half million years, and during
that long revolution and the evolution, we still remain barbarians. We may be
cleaner, quicker communication, better hygiene and so on, transportation - but
morally, ethically - if I may use that word - spiritually, we are still barbarians.

We kill each other not only in a war, but by words, by a gesture. We are very
competitive. Am I talking to myself or are we together in this? We are very
ambitious. Each is concerned with himself. Self-interest: that is the dominant
note in our life: 'self-interest' that is, concerned with onès own well-being,
security, possession, power and so on. Aren't we concerned with ourselves,
spiritually, religiously, business and so on, each one right throughout the
world, whether Russians, Americans or Europeans, and so on, we are all
concerned with ourselves: that means, isolating ourselves from the rest of
humanity. That's a fact. We are not exaggerating. We are not saying
something that is not true. Wherever you go - the speaker has been all over
the world at a certain time and still goes round. Some of you have come a long
way, so has the speaker, a very long way, and when you go around the world
and see what is happening - increase of armaments, violence, fanaticism, and
the great, deep sense of insecurity, uncertainty and the sense of
separateness, 'you and I'. Right?

This is the common note of mankind. Please, we are facing facts, not
theories, not some kind of distant, theoretical, philosophical statement. We are

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looking at facts, not my facts opposed to your facts; facts. Every country in the world as you must all know, is gathering armaments - every country, however
poor or however rich. Right? Look at your own country - immense poverty,
disorder, corruption - you all know that - and gathering of armaments. It used
to be a club to kill another, now you can vaporize mankind by millions, with
one atom bomb or neutron bomb. We have come from the club, arrow and so
on, till we have the atom bomb. And we have progressed, technologically,
immensely - revolution is going on, of which we know very little. The
technological process is so rapid, overnight is already over - something new!

And, ethically we are what we have been for a million years. You understand
the contrast? Technologically, like a computer, which will outthink man, it can
invent new meditations, new gods, new theories. We were talking the other
day with three or four very prominent computer people. The computer can
think backwards and forwards which is called 'architecture'. (I am not going
into it for the moment). And this fifth or sixth generation of computers is so
quick, so extraordinarily capable, it can invent, it can produce, it can change
and so on. (I won't go into all that.)

And man, that is, you and I - what is going to happen to our brains? You
understand something? If the computer can do almost anything - of course
except looking at the new moon, it can do almost anything that human beings
can - this is not some theory. It is happening now. So, what's going to happen
to you? What's going to happen to us, as human beings? We want
entertainment, probably this is part of your idea of entertainment: coming here,
sitting, listening, and agreeing or disagreeing, and going back home, carry on
your own life. This is part of entertainment, as going to church, temple,
mosque or football, cricket in this country. Please, this is not an entertainment.

You and the speaker must think together. It's not just to sit quietly and absorb
some strange atmosphere, some 'Punyam'. Sorry, it is not like that at all. We
are going to, sanely, logically, think together, look at the same thing, together.

Not how you look and I look, but together, to observe, not only our daily life,
which is far more important than any other - our daily living, every minute of
our day. So, first, we are going to, together, think, not just merely listen, agree 114
or disagree, which is very easy. One wishes strongly that we could put aside agreement and disagreement. That is very difficult for most people to do. We
are too eager to agree or disagree. Our reactions are so quick. We classify
everything, as a religious man, irreligious man, mundane and so on and so on.

If you could, this morning at least, put aside completely, agreement and
disagreement, and merely observe together, think together. Will you do it? Put
aside altogether your opinion and my opinion, your way of thinking and the
other person's way of thinking. Could we do that? Only for an hour. Don't
bother. Don't be too long at it, because agreement and disagreement divides
people. It's illogical to say, yes, I agree with you or I don't agree with you,
which means you are either projecting, holding to your opinion, your
judgement, your evaluation, or you disagree, say 'I am sorry, I don't agree with
you'. Another form of personal interest and discarding. Could we do that, for
this morning, just for fun? Just for an amusement, or entertainment, if you
want: to forget our opinions, or judgements, our saying, agreement or
disagreement, just have a good, clear brain, not devotional and emotional or
romantic, but a brain that thinks clearly - if it is at all possible. A brain that does not get involved in all the complications of theory, opinion, admission,
dismission? Could we do that? Probably you have never done it. So, let us
proceed.

What is thinking? Every human being in the world, everyone from the most
ignorant, most crude, from the very, very small person in a little village to the
most highly sophisticated scientist, they have something in common. Haven't
you noticed? Thinking. They think. The villager never read anything, never
been to a school, college, university, but probably most of you here, are or
have been educated. Right? So you think and the villagers think. Right? The
man who sits in the Himalayas by himself, he also thinks. So, every human
being in the world thinks. Right? And this thinking has been right from the
beginning of time.

We must ask the first question - as we are going to ask several questions -
what is thinking? What is it that you think about? What is thinking? Right?

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Would you answer this question first, not from books, right? Not from some Gita or the Upanishads or the Bible or the Koran says. What is thinking? Sir,
one may go to a college, school, right up to university and be a bureaucrat, or
a chief minister or prime minister, or the lowliest of the villagers, they have all something in common, apart from many other things which we will go into,
what is thinking? We live by thinking. Our daily action is based on thinking.

Unless we question, solve, and hold to it, find out. If you are a physicist, a
labourer, or any kind of human being on this earth, we all think. You may think
one way, and another may think another way, but it's still thinking. Yes. So,
what is that? Can you think if you have no memory? You cannot think
backwards and forwards, what you will do tomorrow, or the next hour, or what
you have done yesterday, or this morning. You can think forward and
backward. That is called technologically, in the computer world, 'architecture',
and the computers can do it. So we must find out together, not the Indian way
of thinking or the European way of thinking. I do not know if you follow what
the speaker is saying; or the oriental way of thinking which is the Buddhist, the

Hindu, the Muslim, the Christian and all the sects. Right?

So, what is thinking? Tell me, please. What is thinking? Why do you think?

Are you stumped? No answer? You will discuss with me tomorrow or I believe
the day after tomorrow, we are going to have a dialogue together. Unless you
really understand the process of thinking, unless you really understand it, our
life is always going to be very, very limited. So, we must very deeply, seriously,
as a physicist, as a scientist, examines, we must examine very, very, very
closely this whole process of thinking, which shapes our life. Man has created
god by his thinking. God has not created man. It must be a very, very poor god
who created these human beings who are fighting each other perpetually. He
must be a rather silly old god. So, what is thinking? And why have we made
problems of it? Right? We have problems about thinking. So we also must
examine closely, why we have problems. Do you understand? Are we together
into this a little bit? At least, following each other, or, have you all gone to
sleep?

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So, first, why have we problems in life? What is a problem? We have plenty of them: political problems, financial problems, economic problems, the
problems of one religion against the other, the problems of - oh! You
understand? Haven't you got problems by the thousand? What is a problem
and the meaning of that word 'problem'? What does that mean? The meaning.

According to the dictionary it means something thrown at you, a challenge,
something you have got to look at, face. That's what a problem means. Right?

Are we together in this, or am I talking to myself? So first, the word problem
means something thrown at you. You can't dodge it, you can't run away from
it, you can't suppress it. It is there, like a sore thumb. Why is it, that all our life from the moment we are born till we die, there is a problem - about death,
about fear, about a hundred things? Right? Are you asking this question, or
am I merely asking it for you? You don't seem to react to all this. From the
moment you are born, after a while, after several years, you go to school.

There you have to read, write. That becomes a problem to the child. And later
on you have to learn mathematics, and that becomes a problem. And the
mother says, 'Don't do this, don't do that', that becomes a problem. Right? So,
from childhood we are bred in problems. Right? Am I saying something
strange? You all look so damn serious! I am sorry to use that word, but you do
look very serious, probably only this morning. So, from childhood, we have
cultivated a million problems. Our brain is conditioned in problems. It is never
free from problems. As you grow, become adolescent, sex, how to earn
money, what to do, to follow society or not, revolt or not, and at the end you
yield to society, to environment. So, all this becomes a problem.

Every politician in the world solves one problem and thereby creates
another problem. Haven't you noticed all this? So, the human brain, what is
inside the skull, itself has a problem. Do you understand? So, can the brain
ever be free of problems, to solve problems? Do you understand my question?

If the brain is not free of problems, then how can it solve any problem? Do you
understand? This is logical. Right? So, the brain, your brain, that which is in
the skull, which carries memory, (I am not going into details), which has
acquired tremendous knowledge, that brain has been nurtured, educated, to

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have problems. So, we are asking now: can the brain, your brain, can it ever be free of problems first, and then it can solve problems. It's logical. Right? So, can you be free of problems first? Or is that impossible? You understand my
question? Our brain is conditioned as Hindu and the various divisions in

Hinduism. We are - the brain is conditioned as a Buddhist, as a monk, the
brain is conditioned in various narrow religions, the brain is conditioned by
specialization. Oh Lord! Aren't you interested in all this? I am asking myself,
looking at you - aren't you interested in all this? Or is it the habit of going to a meeting and listening, and saying, yes, quite right, quite right. You are a funny
people, all right.

So, let us begin. Our brain is conditioned by the environment in which we
live, by your education, by your religion, by your poverty or richness, you have
taken vows as monks - don't know why, but you have taken them - and it
becomes a torture, a problem. So our brain is extraordinarily conditioned, as a
business man, as a house-keeper, and so on, and from that narrow point of
view, we look at the world. So, we have to go into this question, of not only
having problems, but also, what is thinking?

Why do you think at all? Is there a different way of action? Is there a
different manner of approach to life, to the daily living, that does not require
thinking at all? Oh, you don't know all this. So, first we have to look very
closely, together - not I am explaining and you accept, that would be silly - but
together find out for ourselves and then act, not say, yes, quite right. Act. We
are going to go into that. What is thinking? Don't you think? Otherwise you
would not be here. You made arrangements to come here at a certain time
and you have also made arrangements to go back. That is thinking. Thinking
philosophically - philosophy means the love of truth, the love of life, not
passing some exam in a university. So, let us find out together what is
thinking. If you had no memory of yesterday or what will happen tomorrow - no
memory at all, of any kind, will you think? You understand? Oh, come on sirs -
would you think and act thereby if you had no memory? Of course not. What

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are you hesitating about? You can't think if you have no memory. So what is memory? Now you are stumped.

What is memory? You did something yesterday and what you did is
registered in the brain, which becomes a memory, and according to the
memory you think and act. Right? So, what is memory? How does it come
about? You remember somebody flattering you, you remember somebody
hurting you, saying ugly things about you, or flattering you because you have
written a book, so, you remember - memory. That is, the memory is the
outcome of knowledge. Right? Oh, Lord! That is, you insulted me; it is
registered in the brain as a memory. That insult or flattery or whatever it is, is
registered which becomes the memory. That is, the knowledge of that incident
becomes memory. I have an accident to a car, that accident is registered in
the brain, in the brain cells, and then it says, yes that is memory, I had an
accident and I must drive carefully. Right? So, out of knowledge comes
memory. Right? Clear? From memory, thought.

Now, what is knowledge? This is rather difficult. We all accumulate
knowledge, the great scholars, great professors, scientists, acquire
tremendous knowledge. Do you understand? What is knowledge? How does it
come about you have knowledge? Haven't you thought about all this, looked at
all this? Knowledge comes when there is experience. Right? You have an
accident in a car, that becomes the act, the accident, that becomes an
experience. Right? Right? From that experience you have knowledge and from
that knowledge you have memory; from memory, you have thought. Right? Be
careful. Don't agree yet or disagree. I am going to pull the rug from under your
feet. So, what is experience, which is, that incident, right, or accident in a car, which is registered in the brain as knowledge? Right? And so on - knowledge,
experience - knowledge - memory - thought. Clear? This is logical. Not my way
of looking at it or your way of looking at it. So, all experience, whether it is
god's experience or your experience, is limited. Yes? Right? Would you agree,
would you see that? All experience! Because, you look at it, the scientists are
adding every day more and more and more. Right? That which is added to, is

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always limited. Don't agree. Look at it, look at it. I know little, and I must know more, you are adding! Right? That which you add to, must be limited. Oh Lord!

Right?

Q: Right.

K: So, experience is always limited. Your experience of god - I don't know
what that means, but it doesn't matter - your experience of something is
always limited; there is something more to be added. So, experience is limited,
knowledge is limited - for ever, not just future knowledge, it is always limited.

Therefore, memory is limited and so thought is limited. Right? Thought is
limited. And where there is limitation, there is division. Right? As the Sikh, the

Hindu, the Buddhist, the Muslim, the Christian, the Democratic party,

Republican party, Communist. You understand? They are all based on
thought. Therefore all governments are limited. All your activity is limited,
whether you think most abstractly or try to be very noble, it is still thinking.

Right? So, from that limited quality of thinking - and thinking is always limited -
our actions are limited. Right?

Now, from that you begin to enquire very carefully: can thought have its
right place and have no other place at all? You understand my question? No,
no. Don't go to sleep, please. I need thought to come here. I have to get up at
a certain time and all the rest of it. You have too. You have to sit there. So, is
there an action which is free of limitation? You think it out. Think it out, look at it carefully. That is, thinking being limited, we have reduced the whole universe
into a very small affair. You understand? We have made our life into such a
small affair. I think, I must be this, I mustn't be that, I must have power, I must not! You follow? We have reduced the enormous quality of life into a very
small petty little affair. Right? So, is it possible to be free of thought? That is, I must think to come here. If I am a bureaucrat, I must think in terms of
bureaucracy. If I go to the factory and turn the screw, I must have certain
knowledge. Why should I have knowledge about myself? You understand my
question? The higher self, lower self and all that stuff? Why should I have
knowledge about it? It is very simple. I am self-interested. I am only concerned

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with myself actually. We may pretend to have brotherhood, or may talk about peace, we may do every kind of verbal explaining in many words, but we are
always self-centred. Right? So, from that arises the question: can the self-
centredness, which is essentially deep selfishness, can there be a change at
all? You understand? Can we be utterly selfless? Go on, sir.

So, we have to enquire: what is the self? Right, sirs? What are you, apart
from your name and profession and your vows and following some guru or
leader, what are you? Tell me. Apart from your profession, apart from your
name - or put it the other way round: are you your name; are you your
profession? Or, are you part of the community, or are you part of the tradition?

The Hindu, that is a tradition, a name! So, what are you? Don't repeat what the

Gita says, the Upanishads say, or somebody else says. That's futile. Actually,
what are you? God! Won't you try to know it? Is this the first time this question
is being put to you? What am I? Aren't you fear? Aren't you your name? Aren't
you your body? Aren't you what you think you are? The image you have built
about yourself - aren't you all that? Aren't you your anger, or do you say 'Anger
is separate from me'? Come on, sirs. Aren't you your fears, your ambitions,
your greed, your competition, your uncertainty, your confusion, your pain, your
sorrow? Aren't you all that? Aren't you the guru that you follow, and all the kind
of stuff you put around your neck? So, when you identify yourself with that,
that is, your fear, your pleasure, your pain, your sorrow, your affection, your
rudeness - all that, aren't you all that? Or are you something high up, super-
self, super-consciousness? If you say you are super-consciousness, higher
self, that is also part of thinking; therefore what you call the higher self is still very small. So, what am I? Don't go to sleep sir! What's the time, sir?

Q: Nine thirty five.

K: We have talked for nearly an hour.

Q: Yes sir. Yes sir.

K: Good. God! I don't know whether it's worthwhile.

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I am saying, you are a bundle of all that. Right? Put together by thought, I am a Hindu, I am a Brahman, I am not a Brahman, or anti-Brahman, and I
want to be prime minister, I want to have a bigger position, I want power,
position. Right? Don't say, no. You want all those. You want to be nearer to
god, or your guru, and therefore, what he says, you follow, and you are
uncertain, confused, lonely, in sorrow, in pain, anxiety. Right? You are all that.

Whatever you think, you are. Right? You may invent all kinds of stuff, but that
invention too is what you are. Right?

So another very, very complicated question I won't go into now, because it
is nearly time: who has put all this together? Putting it all together is called me, myself, my ego, my personality, my higher self, my god, you know, atman, I
invent all this kind of stuff. Who has put this together? You understand my
question? Or is there only one structure? You understand? We have
separated all this. One day I am quite certain, second day I am uncertain, third
day - I mean third day, it's a long interval - I want, I aspire to be very noble, fifth day I say, I must be fearless and so on. Right? Moving from day to day. What
kind of human beings we are! I am a Hindu, Buddhist, and all the rest of it!

Who has divided all this? You understand my question? Who has said, 'I am a

Hindu', or 'I am a Muslim'? Is it merely propaganda? Division between
countries - who created this division? Oh come on, sirs.

Q: Socrates.

K: Socrates?

Q: Thought.

K: Thought: Are you sure? Or is it the desire, the longing to be identified, to
be safe?

Q: These are also thoughts.

K: Would you listen before you put that? Of course, thought, but there is
something else in it. I am asking you most respectfully, who has created this
division? It is thought, of course, but behind that thought there is something
else. I am a Russian, or a Muslim and I hold on to that. Right? For the rest of

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my life I am a Muslim, or a Catholic, or a Hindu, or whatever it is. Who is doing all this, apart from the thought? What is the desire, what is the urge, what is
the movement behind it?

Q: To become.

Q: That's right.

K: To become; what do you mean, to become what?

Q: Different from what I am sir.

Q: It's security.

K: That's it. Security. I want to be secure, that is why I follow a guru. I want
to be secure in my relationship with you, with my wife: she is mine. Right?

Secure. Right, sirs? Secure, protected, safe, some place I must have. At home

- it is rather difficult in a factory or in a bureaucratic structure. The desire, the urge, the response, the reaction is 'safety', 'I must be secure'. Right? K, so and
so name, B.A. You are a crazy crowd. Or an MP, Member of Parliament!

Politics matter very much here, in this country. So, it is a form of security. We
all want security, but we never question, is there security at all? Is there
anywhere I can say I am safe? You distrust your wife, your wife distrusts you.

You distrust your boss, because you want his place. It is all common sense

You like to be gurus - for god's sake! So, each human being in this world - you
may laugh at it now - each human being in the world wants to have a place
where he can be safe, secure, where there is no competition, where he is not
pushed around, where he is not harassed. Don't you want all that? If you are
honest, for a change, don't you want all that? Yes, but you never ask: is there
security at all? We want something - it may be illusory. I want god, but we
have created god. So, you want security, and you also must ask: is there
security at all? If you want security, you must also ask the other question. You
can't say, I want security and hold on. Is there security at all?

Then, the question arises: why do you want security? Is there security in
your thinking? Is there security in relationship? Not with me, with your wife,
your children. Is there security in your job? You may be a professor, carefully

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protected once you become a professor, but they are hapless. You want to become Vice Chancellor? You know the game. So, where is there security? Or
there may be no security at all. Just think about it, sir! See the beauty of that!

having no desire for security, having no urge, no feeling of any kind, in which
there is security in your vows, in your offices, in your factory, in your
parliament and so on. Is there security? Life may not have security. Life is
meant to be lived. Not create problems and then try to solve them, not to have
sorrow, pain. It is meant to be lived, and it will die. That is one of our fears, to die. Right? We will go into all that.

So, for this morning, have we learnt from each other - not helped each
other - have we learnt? Have we heard at all what the speaker is talking
about? Heard with the ear? Have you seen the facts of the world, which is you,
the world is you, have you seen the facts of all that? Or are they all ideas?

There is a difference between fact and idea. The idea is never the fact. The
microphone, this thing in front of the speaker, the word microphone is not the
thing. Right? The word is not the thing, but we have made the word the thing.

You understand what I am saying? So, the 'Hindu' is not you. The word is not
you. You are the fact, not the word. I wonder if you see all that. So, can we see
the word and see that the word is not the thing? The word 'god' is not god. The
word is different totally from reality. Right?

So, we are most respectfully asking: what have you learnt this morning,
actually learnt, so that you act? Not say, yes, quite right, quite right and go
home and carry on. So unless we act, the world is in great chaos - I don't know
if you realize it. There is great trouble in the world, great misery. And the world is you, because you are in misery, you are confused, you are all this, therefore
you are creating the world around you. You understand what I am saying? If
you don't alter, the world cannot alter, change. In the world, everywhere you
go, every human being in the world goes through the same phenomenon, as
you are going through: uncertain, unhappy, fearful, insecure, wanting security,
trying to control, trying to say 'that guru is better than my guru' and so on, and
so on, creating wars. You understand sirs? The speaker is not an optimist or a

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pessimist; we are presenting the facts, not newspaper facts. We are talking about facts of our life, not the life of a guru or the emporer or somebody other.

We are talking together about your life. Your life is like the rest of the
world.They are terribly unhappy, uncertain, miserable, unemployed by the
millions. Poverty, hunger, sorrow, pain just like you - you are not different from
them. You may call yourself Hindu or Muslims or Christains or what you like
but consciously, inwardly you are like rest of the world. You may be dark
brown and they may be light brown, different government but every human
being shares this terrible world. We have made the world. Do you understand?

Not Lenin or Marx, we have made the world. We are society. If you want
society to be something different you have to start, you have to bring order to
your house. The house is you. Alright sirs?

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Chapter 5

Rajghat 2nd Public Talk 19th November 1985

May we go on with what we were talking about yesterday morning? As we
said, we are taking a long journey together, in a railway, a very long journey,
right throughout the world, and that journey began two and a half million years
ago. And, during that long interval of time, and distance, we've had a great
many experiences. And those experiences are stored in our brain, conscious
or deeply unconscious, deep layers of it. And, together, you and the speaker,
are going to examine, explore. It's not the speaker alone talks, we're all talking
together, only the speaker is putting it into words. And the words have a very
significant meaning, not just vocabulary, but the depth of the word, the
significance of the word, the meaning of the word. And, as we said yesterday,
you and the speaker, are taking the journey together, you can't just go to
sleep. You can't just say yes, I agree, or disagree. We went into that. We are
not agreeing or disagreeing. We are merely looking out of the window, seeing
what extraordinary things man has gone through, what experience, what pain,
what sorrow, what unbearable things man has created for himself, and for the
world. We are not taking sides, pro and con, please understand this very
carefully. We are not taking any side, either left or right or centre. This is not a political meeting, this is not an entertainment, this is a serious gathering. If you want to be entertained, you should go to a cinema, or football, but this is a very
serious meeting, as far as the speaker is concerned. He has talked all over the
world, unfortunately or fortunately he may have created a reputation, and
probably you are coming here because of that reputation, but that's no value at
all. So please, together we are going to examine, sitting together in that train,
taking an infinitely long journey. We are not trying to impress you. You
understand? We are not trying to force you to look at something. We are
looking at our daily life, and all the background of a million years, let's keep it to a million years, good enough, and one must listen to all the whispers, hear
every movement, see everything as it is, not as you would wish it to be,
actually what you see out of the window as the train goes by.

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And, you have to keep awake to see everything that you're passing, hear every whisper, hear every sound, the beauty of the hills, the rivers, the stretch
of water, and all the beauty around you. Shall we talk about beauty for a
while? Would it interest you? Yes - don't say yes, yes, it's a very serious
subject, like everything in life. So please, probably you've never asked what is
beauty - not the beauty of a boy.

So to listen, not only to our own inward thoughts, feelings, and our opinions
and judgments, but also to hear the sound of what other people are saying, not
your gurus, that's all rather childish, but what other people are saying, what
your wife is saying, what your neighbour is saying, to listen to the sound of that
crow, to feel the beauty of the world, the beauty of nature. So, we're going to,
for the moment, to enquire into what is beauty. Right? Because you are
passing in that train the most wonderful scenery, the hills, the rivers, the great
snowclapped mountains, deep valleys, not only things outside of you, but also
the inward structure, the nature of your own being, what you think, what you
feel, what your desires are. One has to listen to all this, not just say yes, right, wrong, this is what I think, what I shouldn't think. Or just merely follow some
tradition, either modern tradition, with the psychology, physicists, doctors,
computer experts, and so on, but also to listen, very quietly, without any
reaction, to see the beauty of a tree. So we're going together to talk about
beauty.

What is beauty? Have you been to museums? In the old middle-ages, or

Renaissance, of the great painters, have you seen them, some of you?

Probably not. I won't take you around the museum, I'm not a guide. But
instead of looking at pictures, paintings, and the statues of the ancient

Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, and the moderns, we are looking, asking,
enquiring, demanding to find out, what is beauty? Not the form, not a woman
or a man, or a small child that's extraordinarily beautiful, all children are. So,
what is beauty? I'm asking the question sir, please answer to yourself first, or
you've never thought about it. Not the beauty of a face, but the beauty of a
green lawn, of a flower, of the great mountains, with the snow covering them,

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and the deep valleys, and the still tranquil waters of a river. All that is outside of you. And you say how beautiful that is. What does that word beauty mean?

Because it is very important to find that out because we have so little beauty in
our daily life. If you go through Benares you know all about it. The filthy
streets, the dust, the lorries. And you ask yourself, seeing all this, not the mere tenderness of a leaf, or the tender generosity of human beings, but to enquire
very deeply, this word that is used by poets, painters, sculptors, and you are
asking yourself now, what is this quality of beauty? Do you want me to answer
it, or will you answer it? Go on, sir.

Q: You answer it.

K: Why?

Q: Because we don't know.

K: The gentleman says, you answer it because we don't know. Why? Why
don't you know? Why haven't we enquired into this enormous question? You
have your own poets, from the ancient people until now. They write about it,
they sing about it, they dance, and you say, I don't know what beauty is. What
a strange people we are. But, if you ask who is your guru, who is your god, I
believe there are 300,000 gods in India, pretty good, in Europe or America
there is only one god. With you there are 300,000 more. You can choose any
of them to amuse yourself.

So what is beauty? It's the same question sir, put into different words. What
are you? What is the nature and the structure of you, apart from the biological
factor. What are you? Pass some exams, get a degree, a job, become a
physicist, a scientist, a treasurer for a government, what are you? That is very
closely related to what is beauty. When you look at a mountain, snowcapped,
deep valleys, blue deep hills, what do you feel, what's your real response to all
that? Don't you know? Aren't you, for a second, or a few minutes, absolutely
shocked by it? The greatness, the immensity, the blue valley, the extraordinary
light, and the blue sky against the snowcapped mountains. What happens to
you the moment you look at that - the grandeur, the majesty of the mountains,
what do you feel? Do you for the moment, or for a few minutes, exist at all?

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You understand my question? Please don't agree, look at it very closely. At that moment when you look at something grand, immense, majestic, for a
second you don't exist, right, you've forgotten your worries, and your wife, and
your children, your job, all the messiness of one's life. At that moment you say
you are stunned by it, which is, for that second, the grandeur has wiped away
all your memory, for a second, then you come back. What happens during that
second? Go on sir - what happens when you are not there? That is beauty.

You understand? When you are not there. Don't agree sir. Don't shake your
head, yes, yes. So, there, the grandeur, the majesty of a mountain, or a lake,
or that river early in the morning, making a golden path, for a second you have
forgotten everything. That is when the self is not, there is beauty. You
understand what I am saying. When you are not, with all your problems and
responsibilities, your traditions, and all that rubbish, not your family, then there is beauty. Right? When you are not there, like a child with a toy, as long as the
toy is complex and he plays with it, the toy absorbs him, right, takes him over.

The moment the toy is broken, he's back to whatever it was he was doing.

And we are like that. We are absorbed by the mountain, it's a toy for us for
a second, or for a few minutes, and we go back to our world. And we are
saying, without a toy, with nothing to absorb you, take you over, you
understand what I'm saying - you know how a child behaves when you give
him a toy? Or haven't you watched? The toy becomes to the child
extraordinary, he's amused, and he plays with it. For a few minutes or a few
hours or a few days the toy takes him over. Right? You understand my

English? So the mountain has taken you over. Right? And, can you, without
being absorbed by something great, be free of yourself? You understand my
question? You don't understand this - you're too clever, that's what's the
matter with all of you - too much learning. You're not simple enough - if you are
very simple, not in clothes - deeply simple in yourself, you will discover
something extraordinary. But you are covered over with a lot of knowledge,
experience, and so on.

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So let's move. We are going to talk over together many things. We've talked over beauty for a while, not the poet's beauty, not the poem, the
literature, the essays, the beautiful novel, or the good thrillers. Probably you
don't read thrillers - do you - oh, you are too holy! So let's look at ourselves.

We have created the world. You, the speaker, his forefathers, past thousand
years of generations and time. Right? So, what is all this about? You
understand? You understand what I'm saying? What is all this noise about?

Killing each other, maiming each other, dividing my god, your god. Why is this
society so ugly, so brutal, so cruel? Yes sir, why? Who has created this
monstrous world? I'm not being pessimistic or optimistic, but look at the world,
the thing that's going on outside of you. Poor countries buying armaments.

Right? Your country buying armaments, and immense poverty, competition.

Right? Who has created all this? Will you say god has created it? He must be
a messy god. So who has created this society? You are always talking about
society. Who created it, who put it together? Lord you people! Haven't you put
it together? Not you only, your fathers, your great grandfathers, the past
generations of millions of years, they have created this society, through their
avarice, envy. Right? Through their competition, they have divided the world:

economically, socially, religiously. Right? Face the facts sir, for god's sake.

You and the speaker, and his fathers, and fathers, back, back, back, and your
fathers, as far as you can go, we have put this society together, we are
responsible for it. Right, or do you deny this fact?

So we are responsible for this. Not gods, not some external factors, but we
each one of us has created this society. You belong to this group and I belong
to another group. You worship one god and I worship another god, you follow
one guru, however silly and stupid they are, and I follow another. So we have
divided society. Right? And we have divided not only socially, but also
religiously. Right? Just look at it sir, for god's sake look at it. Geographically we have divided the world - Europe, America, Russia - we have divided the
culture - Western culture and Eastern culture; we have made governments -
labour, democratic, republican, communist. You understand sir, how our brain
works - divides, divides, divides. Haven't you noticed this factor? And so, out of

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division comes conflict. Right? You have divided yourself as the good and the bad - I won't go into all that, it's too complex. For god's sake - you probably
have never thought about any of these things.

So, we have created this society, so you are this society. You understand?

You are the society. So, unless you change radically, you'll never change the
society. Communists have tried this, forcing, compelling secretly, viciously,
destroying millions, to force man, his psychology, his being, to submit to
various forms of compulsion. You must know all of this. This is history - daily
newspaper. And so where there is division, there must be conflict. Right?

That's law. And we like conflict, apparently, so we live in perpetual conflict.

So we must go back and find out, what is the cause of this, all this. Is it
desire, is it fear, is it pleasure, is this the avoidance of all pain, and therefore guilt? You understand all this, or am I going too fast? So let's begin to find out
for ourselves what is desire. Right? That's the basis. Desire to have power,
desire to achieve, desire to become somebody. Right? We are not against
desire, we are not trying to suppress desire, or transcend desire, like the
monks, like most of you, transcend, control, suppress, we're not going into
that. We must, together, understand, what is desire. Right? What is desire?

Are you working as hard as the speaker? Or you just say, well let's listen to
that man, it's a nice day, a nice morning. So, we're asking, what is desire?

How does it come about, what is it's source? Not how to suppress it, how to
control it, or let it go, but the root of it. Aren't you interested in that? Aren't you interested to find out what is the root of it? Do you want me to explain? As
usual. Sir, explanation is not the thing. Right? The word is not this - I may call
it a microphone, and you will call it microphone, but the word is not that,
therefore explanation is not that, the description is not that. When one
describes a marvellous tree, the description is not the tree. So we are going to
use words to convey to each other, but the words, the description, is not the
fact. Right? So, at least one learns that. The word is not the thing. Right? My
wife, the word wife, is not the wife. If we can understand that simple fact, you
will treat her better.

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So what is desire, and why does it dominate us? What is it's place, what is its nature? You understand? What is desire? You understand? All the monks
all the world over, suppress desire, or wanting to transcend desire, or desire is
identified with certain images, certain symbols, certain rituals. Right? You're all there some of you, the monks and all the rest of it. What is desire? Have you
ever asked that question? Or do you yield to desire, whatever the
consequences?

So we're going together, together, not wait for me, for the speaker to
explain, but together we're going to look at it. Right? We live by sensation,
don't we? There's a train going across the bridge: you hear it, you identify it.

So we live by sensation - better food, better house, better wife. So sensation is
life. Right? Part of life - sex is part of life, it's a sensation, pleasure. And we have a great many pleasures. Right? Pleasure of possession, and so on and
so on. To us, sensation becomes extraordinarily important, part of life, right,
part of our existence. If you have no sensation, you are dead. Right? All your
nerves go, your brain withers, and so on. So we live by sensation. Right?

Sensation being touch, feel, sensation; like putting a nail suddenly into your
finger, that's sensation, pain you call it. When you see something ugly, how
can you smile at it, that is part of sensation; tears, laughter, having humour, it's all part of sensation. Then what happens, we have this sensation. You see a
beautiful house - which is it you want, more power, more money? The more;
the more is part of sensation. Right? Right sirs? You're so hesitant, aren't you?

So, what happens when you have a sensation? When you see something very
beautiful, a car, a woman, a man, or a lovely house, what happens? You see
the house, there is a sensation, then what takes place? Go slowly, you'll
understand it. You see that lovely house, clean, with beautiful gardens,
flowers, everything kept beautifully, that's sensation when you see it. Then
what takes place? Sensation is natural. Right? It is inevitable, it is part of our
life. Then I explain, you'll agree and say quite right, quite right, and go home,
do the same thing.

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So then, what takes place? You have seen that house, seen the garden, seen the beauty of the landscape, and how the house is built, with style, grace
and sense of dignity, then thought comes along, makes an image of that
sensation, and then says, I wish I had that house. You follow this - no, you
don't. You see that house there - there is sensation. Just wait a minute, wait a
minute before I go further. Sensation, then thought comes along and creates
out of that sensation the desire to have that house. Right? Or something else.

You see some politician riding in a big car, or cyclist ahead, and all the rest of
that business, and you say, by Jove, I wish I had some power. That is, you
have seen that, sensation, then thought comes and says, I wish I had that
power. Right? At that moment desire is born. When sensation is given a
shape, a form, then at that second desire is born. Do you understand what I
have said? May I repeat it again, do you want it repeated?

Sir, you put a pin in my thumb, that's a sensation of pain. And, every
record, every response is part of sensation. Right? Intellectual, theoretical,
philosophical - sensation. We live by sensation. Be clear on that. We live by
sensations, that is, senses responding, good taste, bad taste, it's bitter, it is
sweet, and so on, we live by sensation. And when we see something which we
have not got, like a house, like a car, like some, you know, that sensation
becomes dominant when thought gives it an image. You understand? When
thought comes along and says, I wish I had it. At that moment desire is born.

Right? Don't look at me as if I am some crazy nut. You understand the subtlety
of it? The depth of it. When thought gives a form, a structure, an image, to
sensation, at that second desire is born.

Now the question is, can sensation not be caught by thought, which is also
another sensation. You understand sir? Sensation, and give it time for thought
to give it shape, that is an interval between sensation and thought giving it a
contour. Right? Do it. See what is implied in it when you do it, not say yes, yes

I agree with you.

Q: If you put a pin in my hand there is pain.

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K: There is pain, then what thought does - no, wait sir, look at it, go slow, don't rush. I have pain in the thumb, in the finger, then, I want that pain to be
stopped, so I go to a doctor or whatever I do. Right? Right sir? I want that pain
stopped. Are we asleep? Yes. Sir, pain is another form of sensation. Right?

Then thought says I must stop it. You don't say, let me look at that pain. Right?

Haven't you done all this? If I'm ill, which I've sometimes been, I say, all right, wait until you feel - see what it means, what pain means, what pleasure
means. Don't you do that, or is it immediately doctor? What? Immediately a
doctor. My god.

Q: The whole response of pain - the pain and a doctor.

K: Yes sir, give an interval. You understand? Not say but I must go to a
doctor, too quick. Give it an interval, a time, and you learn a lot from that.

So, I'm saying, when there is time in between sensation and thought, an
interval, a long interval, or short interval, you'll understand the nature of desire.

In that there is no suppression, no transcending. If you have a car, and when
you drive it, not knowing the mechanism of it, the internal combustion of it, the
machinery of it, you are always a little nervous that something might go wrong.

Right? But if you know, if you have dismantled that car, as the speaker has
done, totally dismantled it, don't get nervous, or something or other, when you
dismantle it, and put it together very carefully, know all the parts, then you're
master of the machinery, of that machine. Right? Then you're not afraid, you
can put it together again. You understand? So, if you understand the nature of
desire, the way desire begins, then you're not afraid of it, then you know what
to do with it.

Q: You give yourself a pain...

K: I've explained sir. Sir let's move to something else.

There's something which you and I, the speaker, should talk over together.

We have lived for thousands of years, and we have never understood the
nature of fear. Right? What is the source of fear, what is the cause of fear.

Right? We apparently have never ended fear, biological fear as well as,

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certainly much more, psychological fears, inward fears: fear of death, right, fear of not having, not possessing, not being, fear of loneliness. Right? We
have so many fears. Don't you know it? Don't you know your fears? No?

You're a rummy crowd - not know your own fears. Out of these fears you
create gods. Right? Out of these fears you create rituals, spiritual hierarchies,
gurus, all the temples of the world are out of fear. Right? And, fear of your
wife, fear of your governor, fear of your policeman, you know, we've got
thousands of fears. And we're asking, what is fear, not your particular form of
fear. You understand, you understand sir? Not my fear and your fear, what is
fear? If you understand the machinery of a car, you're not afraid of the car.

Right? You know how to run it, when it should be serviced, and looked after
and all the rest. So if you know, realize, understand, be with the nature of it,
the cause of it, the root of it, then you will transcend fear, the fear is gone.

Right? We're going to do that this morning.

We're asking what is fear, what's the cause of it, not how to end it, not how
to transcend it, control it, depress it, and run away from it, as you're doing. So
what is the cause the source of fear? Think it out, sir, go into it for a minute.

Take your fear, your particular fear, or fears, what is the root of it? Security,
desire for more, it's all, you understand? So, if you haven't found it, you will
ask somebody, like the speaker, what is the cause of it? Will you listen, to it,
listen, actually listen, as you listen to your boss, who might throw you out, give
you less money, you listen? You listen with all your heart, with your fears, with
your apprehension, you might lose your job, therefore please tell me what to
do. Will you so listen to what he is saying? Or you say, yes. So I'll explain. May

I? But you know how to do your job in an office. Right? So I'll explain. It's
rather complex, and you like complexity. But, the explanation is not the thing.

Right? The word fear is not fear. Right? The word is not the thing.

What is fear? What is the cause of it? Is the word fear the cause of fear?

You understand? The word fear, does that evoke fear in you? Are you sure?

So fear is a fact. And the word is not the fact. Right? Don't look puzzled, sir, it's simple, very simple. The word tree, is not the tree. So the explanation is not a

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means to end fear. So we have to examine then, what is time, because time is fear - tomorrow something might happen, my house might fall down; my wife
might turn to another man; my husband has gone off and I'm in sorrow - fear.

You understand? Fear of the past, fear of the future, fear of the present,
anything might happen. So the past, the future and the present is caught in the
wheel of time. Right? Right? Yesterday, today, and tomorrow is time. Right? I
have been that, I won't be that, but I am not that now. Right? I have been, I
shall be, but I am not. So the whole process is a movement in time. Movement
means time. From here to there is a movement, and that means time to come
from this place to that place needs time. So movement is time. All movement
is time. Right? By the clock - come nearer sir, if you're in the sun sir, you too
come and sit, there's plenty of room for god's sake. Don't be nervous, come
close - so the past, the present, and the future is a movement which we call
time. I was young once, now I'm ninety - this is time.

So what is time? What is time? It took you time to come from Benares to
here. It'll take time for you to get back. So, there is time by the clock. Right?

There is time to cover a distance, there is time as the past, the present, and
the future. Right sir? All this is time. Right? The past shapes the present, right, circumstances and so on. Please, this is very difficult, don't agree or disagree,
just listen, find out. The past is now operating. Right? And the future is shaped
by the present, modified, circumstances have changed, certain incidents
happen, so the past is modified, changed, altered. Right? And the future is
what happens now. Right? So all time, the past, the present, and the future, is
contained now. Ah, this puzzles you - go slowly, I'm not in a hurry. Sir, this
applies to life, not just to theory. You are a Brahmin, oh sorry, you don't like

Brahmins here. You were something yesterday, an incident takes place today
that changes, modifies slightly, alters the past circumstances, the past, and the
future is what you are now. Right? Modified. That's clear, isn't it? Or is this still a puzzle? That is, the past, the present, and the future are now. If there is no
mutation now - you understand the word mutation - if there is no mutation now,
you'll be exactly the same as you've been before. Right? I think I'm Indian, with
all the circus behind it, and I'll be Indian again tomorrow. Right? That's logical, 136
and that being Indian divides me from Muslim. Right? And I'll quarrel with him, not only for his land, increase of population and all the rest of it. So tomorrow
is now. I can't go on explaining it to you. You understand this? So what you do
now matters, much more than what you will do tomorrow. Right?

So what are you going to do? If tomorrow is now, that's a fact, it's not my
theory or your theory, it's a fact: I am greedy now, if I don't do anything about it now, I'll be greedy tomorrow, that's all. Can I stop being greedy today? Right?

Will you? No, of course not. So you will be what you have been. This is the
pattern of humanity, for millions of years. You don't mind killing, be honest, you
don't mind killing. You subscribe to it, you want your country to be strong.

Right? Don't be ashamed of it, this is a fact. And so you gather armaments,
you may not actually do it, you do it through tax, through buying a stamp, you
support. Right? So, if you don't stop being an Indian now, you'll be an Indian
tomorrow. So what are you going to do now? Oh you people, stop, you stop
there. I'm asking what will you do now?

Q: Stop being an Indian.

K: Will you? You know what the implications are - not the passport, not the
paper. Not to be associated with any country, not to be associated with any
group, with any religion - they're all phoney anyhow. Is that possible, will you
do it? Not you sir. Will you see the importance that if there is no mutation now,
today, you'll be exactly the same tomorrow. This is not optimistic or
pessimistic, this is a fact. For two and a half million years we have killed
people. Right? As Buddhists, as Hindus, as Christians, perhaps Christians
have killed more than anybody else. You're not Christian so I can easily say
that! I've tackled this question in front of the Christians. So you understand the
seriousness of it - don't play with it. If there is no radical mutation now, now, I'll be the same tomorrow.

So time is a factor in fear. Right? I'm afraid of what might happen tomorrow.

I am afraid of not passing an exam. Right? A girl or a boy, wanting to pass
some examination in order to have a better job, more money, a better chance,
better this, says I'm going to work, work, work to pass that exam. I might not -

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fear comes in, and so on. Fear is a common factor of all mankind - it's not you, of all mankind. So can that fear, you understand, fear, not one branch of it, can
the root of fear be totally demolished? That is, to have no fear of any kind. The
speaker says it is eminently possible. That it can be done so radically. Either
you kill the speaker, or you worship him, which are both the same. You
understand? And that's what you're doing now. So, that's one of the factors of
our life. And we have lived with fear for a million years, or more and we still
carry on. So the speaker is saying, fear can be totally ended. Don't say it
illumines one, and all that nonsense. You can end it if you put your brain, your
heart into it, completely, not partially. And then you will see for yourself what
immense beauty there is in it. A sense of utter freedom. Not freedom of a
country, or some government, but the sense of enormity of freedom, greatness
of freedom. Right? Will you do it, today, now? From today, seeing the cause of
fear, end it. It is time. Time means thought, time is a movement, isn't it? We all
agree, and thought is also a movement. Don't be dazzled by all this, it's very
simple. Time is movement, thought is movement, so time is thought, and
thought is time. Thought is based on knowledge, memory, experience, and so
on, and time is also very limited in our life. As long as there is fear, biologically, physically, psychologically, it destroys us.

So, if one may ask, after listening to this fact, not theory, what are you
going to do? Time is the factor of fear and thought, so if you don't change now,
you won't ever change, ever again. This constant postponement. Right.

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Chapter 6

Rajghat 3rd Public Talk 22nd November 1985

This is the last talk. We're going to talk over together a great many things
today, a great many things, and as we said, we're not the only speaker. You
and the speaker are partaking, sharing together, the whole problem, or issues
that we are going to discuss, talk over. As we said you are participating in it,
not just listening casually or something that you must listen to, but together we
are going to talk over many things. We've dealt, in the last two talks and
discussion, with many things: fear and all the travails of man, the problems
that we have, those problems which we never seem to resolve. We went into
that yesterday. The problems exist because our minds are filled with problems
because there is no freedom to look at any problem.

This is not the time to go into it now - we went into it very carefully. And
also we went into the question of thought: why thought has made this life so
utterly impossible. Thought has brought about a great deal of conflict. Wars for
two and a half million years - that means practically every year we kill each
other, in the name of god, in the name of patriotism - my country against your
country, my religion against your religion and so on. War after war, not
perhaps in Benares - here you're fairly off the real world, but we're facing wars
every year. And we also talked about the nature of thought, why thought
divides man, or brings them together to do a certain project, like going to the
moon. To build that rocket, probably you had to have over 300,000 people,
everybody doing their little job perfectly. Either we get together in a crisis like war, which is born of hatred, or we come together for some national issue, or
we come together when there is a great crisis like earthquakes, volcanic
eruptions, natural incidents and so on. Apart from that, we never get together.

Now this morning, if I may most respectfully suggest, that we all get
together, as we are all sitting together, and gather energy so that we can think
out very clearly the various issues we are going to raise. Together. That
means you are actively thinking, actively hearing, to activate our brains which

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are rather sluggish - forgive me for pointing this out - sluggish, slow, monotonous, repetitive and so on. So we together this morning, keeping our
brains alert - I'm not insulting you - I'd like to insult you, but I won't. That's only a joke! To keep not only the physical organism active, because that gives
energy: different forms of walking, swimming, and different forms of yogic
asanas and so on; but also to have a very clear, active brain, not a specialized
brain as a philosopher, as a scientist, as a physicist and so on. These
specialized brains become very narrow. I know some friends who are
scientists here - I hope I'm not insulting them. Or the doctors, or the
philosophers who talk about talks - see the joke? - talk about talks, either

Plato, Aristotle, various Greek philosophers or your own. Philosophy actually
according to the dictionary means 'the love of truth', 'the love of life', 'the love of wisdom'. Not theories - adding more and more theory, or quoting somebody
and explaining what they have quoted. All the universities, colleges, schools all
over are conditioning the brain.

I don't know if you've ever gone into the question of learning, what it is to
learn. Now we're going to find out together, what it means to learn. We
generally take learning to mean memorizing: go to school, you memorize how
to read and write, you memorize mathematics, you memorise.. and so on. All
through school, college, university, if you're lucky to reach that level or unlucky to reach that level, you memorize. And that memory can be used actively: to
earn a livelihood, to gain power, possessions, prestige, patronage and so on.

So what is learning? Is there another kind of learning? We know the ordinary
kind of learning - school, college, university, or learning a skill, become an
excellent carpenter or a plumber or an excellent cook. There are several
friends of mine here who are very good cooks and also very good
philosophers, and psychiatrists and physicists - they are all there - here - not in that direction.

So, what is learning? Is there another kind of learning that is not merely
memorizing? Have you ever thought about it? When you're memorizing your
brain is filled with memories. That's simple. So memory multiplies, keeps you

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somewhat alert, you learn more, more, more. We're asking you - is there another kind of learning, not merely memorizing? As we said, we are together,
our brains are active. So the speaker is asking you: is there a different kind of
learning altogether?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Don't define it yet, think, look at the question. Is there a different sort of
learning which is not memorizing? This is a very important question because
the brain records everything, every incident, every kind of memory. When
you're hurt, it is recorded, but you never enquire who is hurt. We'll come to that
presently. So the brain is recording. See the importance of that. It has to
record, otherwise you and I wouldn't be here. So the brain is constantly
recording, discarding. Now is it necessary to record? You understand my
question? You record an incident in a car; an accident. It is instantly recorded,
because you have pain, or you are hurt, or your car is hurt. So the brain has
the capacity, the energy, not only to record, but also to safeguard itself. Right?

We're asking: is it necessary to record everything? Or only record that which is
necessary - and nothing else? Have you put this question to yourself, including
the psychiatrists, including the physicists and so on. Have you ever considered
this question? The brain records for its own security otherwise you and I
wouldn't be sitting here. We recorded how long it would take to come here and
so on. We're asking, it is necessary to record certain things, and totally
unnecessary where the psyche is involved. You understand my question, sir?

Is it necessary when you are flattered to record it? Or when you are
insulted? Is it necessary to record those things? Because the recording builds
up the psyche. Are we talking over together or are you just saying, yes it
sounds rather good? This is a very serious question. Because the psyche
which is made up of all elements, characteristics, ethos, is contained there in
the brain which we call consciousness. In that consciousness, all the activities
of memories, fears, etc., are contained. So we're asking again, don't go to
sleep, please: is it necessary to build up the psyche? 'Psyche' means the self.

The self being all the memories, activities of thought, imagination, fascination,

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fear, pleasure, sorrow, pain. It's recorded. Which makes up the whole psyche, the 'I', the persona. Is it necessary to record so as to build up the self? You
don't think about any of these things. So I'm asking you: have you ever thought
about it, looked at it, or investigated as you would into various philosophical
matters, gone into this question of recording? If I didn't record how to drive a
car - the speaker has driven a car 120 miles an hour two years ago - if there
was no recording, I couldn't drive. So it is necessary to record certain things
and totally unnecessary to record other things. See the beauty of it - so that
the brain is not always conditioned in memory; so the brain becomes totally
free, but active.

So that's the first question: learning is not to record. We'd like to discuss
this with a psychiatrist if one is here. We have discussed this matter in New

York. They were fascinated with the idea of not recording. So the brain cells
themselves mutate. Do you understand? Oh, no. Our brains are built up of
cells and so on - I'm not a professional - and in the brain cells are the
memories. And we live on those memories; the past, all the remembrances
that one has, and the older you grow, the more you go back further and further
till you die. And it's rather an important question to find out, to learn to find out: whether the brain needs to record everything. Not forgetting. The difference
between forgetting and not recording are two different things. So when you are
hurt - not physically but psychologically, inwardly, what is hurt? You say: I am
hurt. Haven't you heard that phrase. Is it new to you? We are all hurt. From
childhood till you grow old and die, you are being hurt all the time, till you say,

'I can't stand any more hurt. I've been hurt so much, I'm frightened'. I build a
wall around myself, isolate myself, all the consequences of being hurt. Who is
being hurt? Answer this, sir. You are all hurt. Every human being on the earth
is somewhat hurt, from childhood; the scolding, the slapping, all that goes on
with children. All of us have had hurts. Now, who is hurt?

Q: It is me.

K: Don't just answer me, please. Think it out. You say, 'It's me'. What is

'me'? You just say, me, 'I' - any word that comes. But you don't investigate who

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is the 'I'. Who is the persona, who is the personality, who are you? A name, a degree, if you are fortunate, or unfortunate enough to have one, a job, a house
or a flat - measly little flats like living in boxes - and a title after a name - ISA, MSc., or MAD. You all like MAD. So the image that you have built about
yourself, and the images you have built about things which is yourself, so
when you say you are hurt, the images are hurt, about yourself. Are you clear?

No, please, don't be clear about the explanation. But all those images are you.

You're a physicist, you're a doctor, you are a philosopher, you are an MP, or
an engineer. Have you ever realized that they always introduce someone as,

'He's the engineer, he's the cuckoo.' Always introduced by his profession. Do
you understand, sir, it's all crazy.

So the self, the psyche, the persona is the image which you have built
about yourself, and the image you have built about your wife and she builds an
image about you and these images have relationships. Right? See what is
happening. The images have relationships, not the person, but the images.

Right? And you live on that. So you never know your wife or your husband or
your friend. Or you don't care to know, but you have the image. So the
question is: can you live without a single image about the prime minister, about
persons like him and me? Can you live without a single image? See the
implications of it, the beauty, the freedom of it.

There are so many things to talk about. May we go on? Not just say, 'Yes,
go on', but you are partaking in it, you are actively thinking together. Right?

Not just say, `Yes, let me listen to what you have to say'. Which means you
don't really listen at all.

So we ought to talk about together - why all this effort in life? Why do we
make such an immense effort to do anything? You understand my question?

Why make effort? I've been through all this - don't answer quickly. I've been
put through the grind by scientists, philosophers, by various forms of religious
cuckoos, every kind of person, so don't say anything quickly. Why do we make
such an effort in life? You make tremendous effort to meditate - we'll come to
that presently - we make a tremendous effort to live, to fight, to battle against

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one another, opinion against opinion, judgement against judgement, I agree with you, I disagrees with him. Why all this effort? For what? For money? I am
asking you sir, keep awake. For money? For your family? Please listen
carefully. For your affection, that you must be loved by somebody? Why all this
effort? When you ask that question, then you must ask, what is love? That
stumps you. Is love effort? I must love you, therefore I am going to make an
effort about it. Is love an effort? Then you have to enquire, what is love? Do
you mind enquiring into this? Do you know what love is? Apparently you don't,
because you are all very silent. What is love? Can there be love when there is
ambition? Sir, please, this is serious. This is not for somebody who doesn't
care, who just wants his own way. Is love ambition, is it greed, is it self-
centredness? Is it ambitious achievement? Is love the opposite of hate?

You know, sirs, we are always fighting from the beginning of time. You see
this in various caves in France, Greek mythology, the good fighting the bad, all
through life. Right? Do you understand what I am saying? The good fighting
the bad. You see it in paintings as symbolized the good, as symbolized the

Devil. Or as in Greek mythology or other mythologies it is the white bull against
the black bull or the good fighting the evil in different shapes and symbols and
so on. We still do that, the good fighting the bad. Don't you do it? Is the good
separate from the bad? The good guy and the bad guy. Is the good born out of
the bad? Don't look suddenly grave, sir - it's all a game to you. If the good is
related to the bad, then it's not good. If the good is born of the bad, comes out
of the bad, then it's not good. That is simple, isn't it? But if the bad is totally divorced from the good, no relationship between the good and the bad, if there
is no relationship with each other, then there is only the bad and the good.

Totally divorced from each other, therefore they can't fight.

So then we have to enquire, what is the good? Are you interested in all
this? Therefore, you have to ask, can love contain hate? Or hate have nothing
to do with love? Therefore there is no relationship between the two, therefore
they can't fight each other. You understand - this is an important question for
you to understand, to delve into, to go into, because you are always saying, I

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have not been good today, but I will be good tomorrow. Or, I have been angry today, but I will not be angry tomorrow. This is the relative relationship
between the good and the bad.

So love has nothing whatsoever to do with jealousy. Love has nothing
whatsoever to do with hate. Where there is hate, pleasure, anxiety and so on,
love cannot exist. Yes, sir. And the speaker questions whether you love
anybody at all. And what is love? How does it come about? Don't you ask that
question? Do you really ask that question, or am I asking it for you?

Q: The question is with us.

K: What question?

Q: Whether we love.

K: Yes. Whether you love. Can love exist where there is sorrow? Careful,
sir, don't answer me. Most of us are in sorrow of some kind or another. Failing
an exam, failing to be successful in business, or in politics, or in your
relationship with your wife or in your relationship with somebody upstairs. You
understand - upstairs - which might be your guru or some other imaginative
figure. So when you can't succeed, when there is no success in you, you are
depressed, you are sorrowful. Or you are sorrowful because you live in a small
village and you don't know how to read and write - thank god - and you don't
know how to drive a car, or you don't have a hot bath or you wear one dirty
cloth. The speaker has been through all that. You're all fairly well-to-do and so
on. So he suffers. The man in position, high up the ladder - nobody pulls down
the ladder but he is high up. He suffers too, because there are a few more
steps to go up. So everyone on this earth, everyone from the richest to the
poorest, from the most powerful man to the least powerful, they all suffer.

Every woman on earth suffers. Men have pleasure, woman suffer. So suffering
is not yours, because everyone around you suffers. It's not my suffering - it's
suffering. I wonder if you understand that? My son dies and I get terribly upset.

I weep and I say, I've lost my son, and that becomes a perpetual problem. I
weep every time I see a little boy or a little girl. And I go through the pain of
loneliness, sorrow, all the rest of it. Do we ever consider, sorrow is not mine,

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it's everybody's, which doesn't minimize sorrow - it's there. And can that sorrow end? As long as I am suffering because I've lost my wife, or I'm not as
great as I thought I was, or I've got pain in my joints, or something or other, I'm always suffering. I'm asking, can that sorrow end? If there is sorrow, there is
no love. Please realize that. If I suffer, suffer, suffer, it's part of self-pity, part of my concern, it is only I am suffering, nobody else, my sorrow is different from
your sorrow, my god is different from your god, my guru is stronger that your
guru. It becomes a joke.

So is there an end to sorrow? Or mankind must go through this horror all
his life? Yes, sir. The speaker says it can end, otherwise there is no love. If I'm shedding tears all the time because I've lost my son and he's the only son I've
had, to me the son represents me, my continuity, my property, however small
it is, I had hoped he would become prime minister, have a better house, more
learned, get more money. You know? We all think the same way, don't play
around with this. So I suffer. And you come along and tell me, Èvery human
being on earth suffers, it's not your suffering old boy, we all share it.' I refuse to accept such a statement because I love my sorrow. I'm happy in my sorrow,
and I want to be separate in my sorrow. So it requires a great deal of enquiry,
persuasion, talking about it, to say, 'Look, have a little bit of it, but it isn't quite yours.' That means no self-pity and that means you are really sharing the
burden of sorrow for all the rest of mankind. Go on, sir. You don't know
anything about it. Think about it, look at it. You are part of humanity, you are
not separate from humanity. You may have a better position, better degrees,
better money, profession, you are part of mankind, your consciousness is part
of mankind. That is, your consciousness contains all the things you have
thought about, imagined, fears, and so on. Consciousness is that and that is
the consciousness of mankind. Mankind has fear, sorrow, pain, anxiety,
shedding tears, uncertain, confused, every human being on earth. And you are
like the rest. So you are not - listen carefully - so you are not individuals. I
know my body is different from your body. You are a woman, I'm a man. But
we are in the world as one unit. That relationship when you feel you are the

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rest of mankind then something totally different takes place. Not just words, imagination, but the feeling of it, the enormity of it.

So we've talked a bit about that. Then we ought to talk about death. Sorry,
on a lovely morning, sitting under the trees, quiet, no trains crossing the
bridge, we are very quiet on a lovely morning. And to talk about death may
seem morbid, may seem ugly, may seem something not to be talked about.

They are writing books in America on how to die happily, doctors are doing it,
telling their patients how to die happily. Now together we're going to examine
it, share it. Not just you listen and I talk. That's childish. So, what is death?

Why are we so frightened of it? Why do we keep death for ten years later, or
twenty years later or a hundred years later? Why living and death? Then you
have not only to ask: what is death and what is dying but also what is living?

You understand what I am saying? What is living? What is your living? Office
from nine to five, as a clerk or a governor or whatever it is, as a factory
worker? Nine to five for the rest of your life, except when you retire, a ga-ga
old man. And your life is breeding children, sex, pleasure, pain, sorrow,
anxiety, problem after problem, illness, doctors, caesarean operation, pain
giving birth. This is our life. Do you deny that? No. And you call this living.

Don't look at me as if I'm a strange man. This is what we call living. And you
support it, you enjoy it. You want more and more of this. Right? So this is what
you call living. And you put death far away, as many years away as possible.

And in that distance of time you are building up that same pattern, over and
over - your children, your grandchildren live in that same pattern which you call
living. Don't deceive yourself saying that nature struggles so we must struggle.

Monkeys struggle so we are monkeys. There is a very famous author I used to
know and he wrote, 'Perhaps we should be behind the bars, not the monkeys'.

So this is what we call living. And I say this to myself - we are sharing this
together - why no bring that which you call death into living, together. You can't
take anything with you, even your guru, even all that he has said, all that you
have tried to live up to. You can't take it with you. Your furniture and your wife, your children, all the silver you have collected, all the money in the treasury,

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none of it can you take with you. That's one thing certain: death, and you can't take anything with you. Except - we won't go into that. So as you cannot take
anything with you, why not let the two meet? You understand what I'm saying?

Why not death come today? Not suicide - I'm not talking about that. After all,

I'm attached to my wife or to my furniture (more like it) or to my... Sorry to
laugh, you are a crazy crowd. So I say to myself or you say to yourself, I'm
attached to something or other: to my shirt or to my robe, or to some guru or to
some fantasy, some symbol, to which I'm attached. Death comes along in ten
years and says, 'Old boy, you can't take that with you.' So why not get totally
free of attachment now? Which is death. You understand what I'm talking
about? Totally detached, today, not tomorrow. Tomorrow is death.

So, why can't I be free of my attachment, now? Therefore living and dying
are together all the time. I wonder if you see the beauty of it. Not ten years
later or forty years later. That gives you an immense sense of freedom - to
your profession, to everything about you. So living and dying are together,
always. It's not something to be frightened about. So if the brain can do that,
then there is a totally different quality to the brain. It has no hooks. It has no
sense of the past, the future, the present. It is living. I can't go into it now
because it is really an endless way of living; every day is a new day; every
morning is a son of the morning.

And also we should talk about religion. Don't mistake what I'm talking about

- what K is talking about. The future is now. Therefore there is no 'I shall be
born next life'. That is an idea to which you're attached, it gives you great
comfort, bla bla, all the rest of it. But if you believe in reincarnation then you
must act right now, act rightly now, because next life you are going to pay for it
or be rewarded. If you believe in reincarnation, as most of you probably do -
it's a very comforting idea but meaningless, because if you act rightly now,
righteousness has no reward. Righteousness is righteousness, not what you
are going to get out of it. That's a merchandise attitude, mechanical attitude. I
won't go into all that as there is no time because we have some other things to
talk about.

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What is religion? Sir, this is one of the most important questions about life.

There are temples, all over India, mosques all over the world, churches all
over the world, and their priests beautifully decorated, beautifully garbed, all
medallions and so on. This has been one of the problems from the most
ancient of times. The priest and the king. The priest wanted power. The king
also wanted power. But the priest was stronger because he wrote, read, and
the king had to obey him because he was the wiser man - or he was supposed
to be. And gradually the king said, 'This is not good enough' and so there was
a war between the priest and the king. This is historical - you'll find it in
different ways. And the king won. And said, 'You keep to your place.' But the
priest also wanted to have power. You know all this, don't you? It's happening
right now. And the popes have three crowns - spiritual, terrestrial and so on.

So there was a conflict in parliament between the priest and - I won't go into all
that - so the priest was put out. So they had to be religions. Religions has been
built. I won't go into the word 'religion'. It had a complicated meaning at one
time, but now it has become a symbol, a ritual, a superstition. In this country,
it's a superstition, a ritual, worshipping a symbol. This is repeated all over the
world, over and over again - a mixture of these three. And is that religion?

Parsi, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - is that religion? Or is religion
something entirely different? I'm sorry to upset all of you. But is that religion?

Going to the temple three times a day, the Muslim calling five times a day and
the Buddhist and so on. Is that religion or is religion something entirely
different? It has nothing whatsoever to do with rituals or symbols. Because all
this has been invented by man, because the priests wanted power, position,
so he put on new hats, new clothes, and grew long beards or shaved their
heads. So all that is called religion. To an ordinary thoughtful man, fairly
intelligent, he will say, that is rubbish total rubbish. If he discards all that, really discards, totally puts away being a Hindu, with all his superstitions, symbols,
worship, prayers, all that stuff. And the Christian does, and the Buddhist, then
what is religion? He is a serious man, not just a wordmonger - not warmonger
but wordmonger. So what is religion? We're talking over together - the speaker

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is not laying down the law, no authority, he says, let us talk about it, let's investigate, let's go into it.

Our brains are chattering all the time. Never a second when it is quiet.

Haven't you noticed it? Chattering, chattering, chattering, or imaging, or
perpetually in action. You know that, don't you? There is never a moment of
silence. And that silence is also a repetition: 'Ram, Ram' or whatever you
repeat. When you repeat, repeat, repeat, your brain becomes very dull. Right,
do you agree to this? When you repeat something mechanical and you repeat
the word, something or other and gradually the brain through repetition
becomes dull and quiet and that quietness is something marvellous to you. Do
you understand what I am saying? Are you all asleep? Or are we awake to talk
to each other?

This repetition either physically, or sexually, constant repeat repeat, makes
not only the body, the organism dull but also the brain. And when it becomes
dull, you think that's quiet. If you discard all that nonsense - for the speaker it's complete nonsense like going to a circus - for the speaker, not for you. But
we're sharing it, talking about it together. I am not persuading you, influencing
you to do this or that.

So we have to enquire what is meditation, what is silence. Silence allows
space. You can't be silent in a tiny space. Right? Space. So we have to go into
the question of meditation, space, time and whether there is an end to time.

Not, 'Tell me how to meditate.' You understand, sir? We are not telling you
how to meditate. Your meditation now is achievement. The meaning of the
word 'meditation' is to ponder over - in a dictionary you will find this - to ponder over, think over, weigh, Look at it carefully. Also it means 'measure', 'ma' in

Sanskrit. Measure. So meditation as it is now, repetition, making the mind dull,
and then saying, 'At last'. Because it is dull, and being dull it becomes quiet.

And you think you've achieved some tremendous thing. And you go round
repeating this to others. And the poor gullible people say, 'Yes, yes.' So we're
going to consider all this now.

It is five minutes past ten. Do you want to go on?

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A: Yes, yes.

K: Am I working or are you working?

A: Together.

K: Are you sure? Meditation as is generally practised is to cultivate this
dullness. Right? And therefore gradually make the brain subservient, quiet.

And when you feel quiet, you say, 'My God, everything is achieved'. For the
speaker that is not meditation at all. Don't ask how to meditate. It is like asking a carpenter how to build a beautiful cabinet. If he is a good carpenter, you
don't have to tell him. So we are not asking how to meditate, but we are asking
what is meditation? Two different things altogether. Not how, but what is
meditation. As is generally practised, it is a series of achievements. Right?

And you say 'Buddha is enlightened'. I don't know what that means but that
doesn't matter.

So, when you compare which is meditation - 'ma' as I said in Sanskrit
means to measure. 'I was this today, I'll be better tomorrow'. That is
measurement. Measurement has no place in meditation. Measurement has
great place from the Greeks onwards; measurement is necessary in all
technology - in all technology, whether you build a chair, or the most
complicated trajectory to go to the moon. Measurement is necessary. So we
are saying, meditation implies total freedom from all comparison and
measurement. Now this is difficult. Because meditation is something
marvellous if you know what to do - not you, meditation.

The meditator is different from meditation. As long as there is a meditator,
there is no meditation. You understand all this? Because the meditator is
concerned about himself - how he is progressing, what he is doing, 'I hope I
will be better tomorrow', anxiety, in meditation there is no meditator. Once you
have seen this, sir, for yourself, the beauty, the depth, the subtleties of it.

So the practice of meditation is no meditation. Sitting on the banks and
looking as you know - making the mind more and more dull, and saying 'Yes,

I've spent an hour, marvellous', and you prostrate, touch his feet. By the way,

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please don't touch my feet. That's most undignified, as a human being. You can hold my hand any amount you like, but not the feet of somebody, it's
inhuman, undignified. So meditation is something that cannot be practised, as
you practise a violin, a piano. In singing you practise; that means that you want
to reach a certain level of perfection. And in meditation there is no level,
nothing to be achieved. Therefore it is not a conscious, deliberate meditation. I
wonder if you understand all this. There is a meditation that is totally
undirected, totally if I can use the word - unconscious. It is not a deliberate
process. Let's leave that. We can spend a lot of time on this. An hour, more - a
whole day. The whole of your life to find this out.

And also we have to talk about space. Because meditation is that. Space -
we have no space in the brain - do you realize that Sir? No space. Space there
is between two struggles, between two thoughts but still within the sphere of
thought and so on. What is space? Does space contain time or time includes
all space. We talked about time. May I just briefly go over it, though it's nearly
quarter past ten. Don't blame me afterwards for keeping you here. Time, I will
put it very briefly - if you don't understand it, I am sorry - time is yesterday, all the memories, all the incidents, all the quarrels, the uncertainties and the long,
two and a half million years of memory, all that is yesterday. And the present is
the environment, what is happening now. All the past is circumstances, by
time, by events, now. And the future is this modified, this reshaped in time as
the future. So the past modifying itself in the present becomes the future,
right? So all time, the future, the present and the past is contained in the now.

This is a tremendously revealing thing, because it demands action, not just
agreement, say I'm going home, go on with your life. The whole of time, the
future, the present and the past is now. So action changes now, not tomorrow,

I will be good tomorrow. So all action, all thought, all time is now. We went into
that, I won't go into it further. So, what is space? Don't imagine it, because
then it's just thought imagining space is this, the heaven. I must tell a very
good joke. May I?

Q: Please.

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K: This happens to be hell and the devil is there in the distance - I am not pointing at anybody. The devil is far in a corner, you know Christian devil with
two horns and tail, and there are two people talking together. One says to the
other: It's very hot here, hell, very hot. The other fellow says: Yes, very hot, but dry heat. No joke? Funny people. All right sir. I've got lots of jokes. I can't bring any more.

So what is space? If space contains time then it's not space. Then it's
circumscribed, limited. Right? So can the brain be free of time? Sir, this is such
an important, immense question. You don't seem to gather it. If life, all life is
contained in the now - you see what it means? All humanity is you - all
humanity. Because you suffer, he suffers, anxiety, pain and so on. His
consciousness is you. Your consciousness, your being is him. You understand

- there is no you and me which limits space.

So, is there an end to time - not to the clock which you wind and it stops - to
the whole movement of time. Time is movement. A series of incidents,
movement. Thought is a series of movements, so time is thought. So we're
asking - if space contains time, yesterday, tomorrow and all the rest of it - it's
not space. So, is there an end to time which means is there an end to thought,
so which means is there an end to knowledge, so is there an end to
experience which is total freedom. And this is meditation. Not sitting on the
banks and... that is all too childish. This is real, demands great deal of not only the intellect, but an insight - don't use that word again, please - an insight into all this. The physicist, the artist, the painter, the poet have limited insight,
limited, small. We are talking about a timeless insight. So this is meditation.

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Chapter 7

Rajghat 1st Public Question & Answer Meeting 21th November, 1985

This is supposed to be a conversation between us. You are going to
question me, question the speaker, we are going to have a discussion, a
deliberation, take counsel together, weigh together, consider together, to
balance things together, it is not one person answering your questions, or
queries, but rather together we are going to have a conversation.

Probably you are not used to this, to really talk to somebody openly,
frankly. Probably you never do it, even to your wives or husbands, or
somebody closely related, you never talk openly, frankly. You put on a mask,
pretend. If we could put aside all that this morning and consider what
questions we have, what we would like to talk over together, what you are
most concerned with, not just some absurd stuff, but rather what you really
want to find out. So we are going to have a deliberation. That word means to
weigh together, balance, take counsel with each other, to consider with each
other. Not the speaker considers and then you agree or disagree, that's rather
childish.

So can we, this morning, talk over together as though we were really true
friends. Not that I am sitting on a platform because a platform indicates
somebody high up, it is there for convenience so we can see each other. So
before we begin to discuss, how do you approach a question? Do you
understand what I am asking? How do you regard a question, a problem, how
do you weigh the problem, how do you come very close to the problem? So
we are going to consider together whatever the question is, however silly the
question is, or how absurd the question is, we are going to talk about it
together. Is that clear? Right? You can't expect the speaker to answer your
questions, because in the question itself may be the answer. You understand?

Not you put a question to me and then I answer it. That's rather meaningless.

But how do you regard a question, what is your approach to the question, how

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do you consider, weigh, take account of the question? Because in the question itself may be the answer; not question and then wait for an answer.

So whatever question we are going to discuss this morning, let us examine
the question first, not wait for an answer. You understand, sirs? Have you
understood this? Or it is too mysterious?

I've got a question, a question, I am not going to answer it. Why do you
separate life, the living, daily living from your ideas of the spiritual? Why do
you divide the two? May I put that question? Right? Why do we separate so-
called religious life - all the monks and the robes and all that - and the daily
monotonous lonely life; why do we separate them? Please, answer my
question.

Q: Because it gives us energy.

K: So we want energy, is that it?

Q: It needs a different kind of energy. The spiritual life and the ordinary,
mundane life involve two different kinds of energy.

K: That is, two different kinds of energy, one for the so-called spiritual,
religious life, and the other, the mundane life, another kind of energy. Now I
am not going to answer the question, let's find out if what you are saying is a
fact. Right? Is it a fact? You state this, you say, well those people who are
religious put on those funny robes, they need quite a different kind of energy
than a man who travels around, makes money and all the rest of it, or the poor
man in the village. Why do you divide the two? Energy is energy, whether it be
the electric energy, or the motor driven energy, or the solar energy, or the
energy of the river in flood - energy. You have the energy to come here,
energy to go for a walk, energy to do all kinds of funny things you do. So why
do you divide energy? Is that, the man with the beard and strange clothes, has
he more energy? Or he is trying to concentrate his energy on a particular
issue? You understand, sirs? Energy is energy. Hydroelectric energy, piston
energy in a car, the dynamo energy, the solar energy, right? They are all
energy, aren't they?

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Q: There are various kinds of energy: one is the energy of thought, which can be stilled; there is another, the energy of insight, which does not get
stilled, and there is yet another, the energy of mind, which brings about
compassion and other things.

K: Sir, would you mind making your statement short?

Q: There are various kinds of energy: one is the energy of thought which
can be stilled, there is another energy of insight, which does not get stilled,
and another energy of mind which brings about compassion.

K: Certainly not. We are talking over, I am not laying down the law.

Q: The relationship of the three aspects of energy: of thought, of insight and
of mind.

K: You answer it! Why not? You have a perfect right to answer him.

Q: Just because we want to be comfortable, we divide energy into various
compartments. I do not think there can be many types of energy. Energy can
be only one.

K: I should have thought so myself. You see how we divide everything. We
divide spiritual energy, mental energy, the energy of insight, the energy of
thought.

Q: It complicates it.

K: I know, it complicates it, doesn't it. Why not be very simple about it. The
energy of the body, the energy of sex, the energy of thought, it's all energy, it's one thing, only we divide it. Why? Find out, madam, why do we?

Q: We are conditioned to divide it.

K: Yes. Now, sir, why are you conditioned? Why do you accept this
division? You understand sir? India, Pakistan, Russia, America, why do you
divide all this? Tell me.

Q: It is a reality.

K: Of course it is a reality, you go to war. Why do you make obvious statements, sir?

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Q: There is a difference between the truth and reality.

K: All right. What do you call reality?

Q: What we see.

K: Therefore you say reality is right in front of you, what you see visually,
optically. Is the tree a reality?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: All right. Is what you think a reality?

Q: Sometimes we have to.

K: Is your wife a reality?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: What do you mean by a wife?

Q: He says in real life...

K: No, no, I am asking him a question. What do you mean by my wife?

Q: There is a psychological factor.

K: What do you mean psychological? Sir, we haven't finished that question.

Q: There is a psychological attitude that I have towards my wife, and there
is the reality of that wife who has her own psychology.

K: Sir, are you saying, sir, if I may put it in my own words - you will allow me
to put it in my own words? The image of your wife, the image which you have
built up is different from the wife - is that it?

Q: Could be.

K: What do you mean 'could be'?

Q: It happens sometimes that the image coincides with the reality of my
wife is.

K: Have you looked at your wife? Have you seen her, enquired into her
ambitions, her pain, and anxiety, bearing the pain of children and all the rest of
it? Have you considered what the wife is? Or you may have lived with her for

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ten, or five, or fifty years and built an image about her, haven't you? Right?

Right, sir?

Q: Not necessarily.

K: I do not say necessarily, or unnecessarily. Is it a fact that you have, if
you are married, or if you have some friend, you build an image about her,
don't you? Not necessarily, but it takes place. Right sir? I am not trying to
brow-beat you, sir, but each one has an image about the other. You have an
image about me, haven't you? No sir? Otherwise you wouldn't be here. So we
create an image about another depending on our temperament, depending on
our knowledge, depending on our illusions, depending on our fantasies and so
on. We build an image about people. You have an image about the prime
minister, you have an image about the person who is speaking to you. So we
are asking a much deeper question: can you live a daily life without images?

Q: The images that we build up, they are generally in relationship with
ourselves. I build up an image around me.

K: Yes, you have an image about yourself.

Q: And if we can achieve that state about which you have been talking -
effacing the centre, the self - then the images would automatically drop. Then
one can live without images.

K: So when you talk about relationship, what do you mean by that word?

Q: By relationship...

K: Sir, please just listen quietly for five minutes before you answer, take a
little breather. What is your relationship with another? Relationship. You
understand the word? Just listen. To be related. I am related to him, he is my
father, my brother, my sister, whatever it is, what do you mean by that word
relationship?

Q: It is..

K: Careful, sir! Don't be so quick. Go slowly, we have plenty of time. You
understand the word relationship, to be related, either through blood - he is my

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father, my brother, you have come out of the same womb, my father and my mother produced us. What do you mean by that word relation?

Q: I am not using the word relationship in that sense.

K: I am talking in that sense.

Q: My care and concern for my friends, for my parents, for my children
including hatred - all that is included.

K: Do you really care? Or is it just an idea that you should care? Sir, did
you understand , if I may politely ask you, what do you mean by the word, the
word, to be related? Not what you have given meaning to it, the meaning
according to the dictionary, what do you mean by that word relationship?

Q: Contact through the actual, not through words or images.

K: Sir, I am asking you a question, don't kick it around. I am asking you
most respectfully what do you mean by related. I am related to him, what does
that mean?

Q: I think when I say I am related, I become a part of that.

K: Are you a part of your wife?

Q: Yes, partially.

K: Not total, or partial. I am asking sir, most politely, what do you mean by
that word relationship?

Q: Sir, being associated with day-to-day life, a network of expectations from
each other, duties and obligations.

K: You make it so very complex, don't you. If you would kindly listen, I am
asking you what do you mean by that word, per se for itself, not what you think
it should be.

Q: Close touch; getting attached; to have something in common. If I have
an image about you, then I have a relationship with you.

K: Do I need an interpreter, we are talking in English. I don't know Hindi or
any Indian language, I only know several European languages. But the word

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relation has a great significance. I am asking you, if I may, what do you mean by that word.

Q: To have something in common.

Q: To have a relationship.

K: All right, sir, let him shout.

Q: I have an image about you.

K: Do you have a relationship with me? In what way? I am asking you
seriously, sir, don't throw it aside.

Q: When I am looking at you without an image I have relationship with you
at that moment.

K: You really haven't thought about it. You are just throwing out words.

Q: I think we have diverted from the original question.

K: I know, I know. I am not so dumb as I look! So, sirs, let's get back, I'll
come back to this word, it is a very important word in our life. Why do we
divide the spiritual and the mundane? Just listen, sir, please just listen. We
divide India against Pakistan, we divide various religions, Christianity,

Buddhism, Hinduism and so on, divide, divide, divide - why? Don't answer, just
look at it sir, we are taking counsel together, we are looking at the same
problem together. You understand, sir. Why do we divide? Of course there is a
division between man and woman, you are tall and I am short, or I am tall and
you are thin, whatever it is, but that's natural: you are tall or brown, or white, or pink, or yellow, I happen to be black, all right. But that's according to the sun,
according to heritage and so on, genetic issues - I won't go into all that. Why
do we divide?

Q: Because we have different ideas and different feelings and different
interests, and we want to stick to them.

K: Why do you want to stick to them?

Q: Because we are selfish and we have self-interest.

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K: No, don't reduce everything to selfishness. Why do we divide, I am asking.

Q: There is something most curious.

Q: I think we have to divide because when I do not have an image about
my wife I am being spiritual, but when she is violent, she is being real, so there
is a division between the real and the spiritual.

Q: Energy as such is different from scattered energy. When an atom is
bombarded by energy, the atom gets scatters, the scattered energy has
properties different from that the old energy with which the atom was
bombarded. A similar thing happens in the psychological field.

K: Which means what?

Q: Different kinds of energy manifested in psychological fields are different
from each other.

K: So who is dividing all this? Who is dividing all these various forms of
energy?

Q: The mind itself first divides into real perfection, then the outer perfection.

K: Is that your experience? Or are you quoting somebody?

Q: Half-half.

K: Could we please be serious for a while and face these facts: why have
we divided the world around us - Pakistan and India, Europe and India,

America and Russia and so on, who has done all this division?

Q: I think it is the ego, it is thought.

K: Are you guessing? Are you guessing? Why don't we look at the fact
first? We have different ideologies, different beliefs, one section of the world
believes in Jesus, the other section believes in Allah, some other section
believes in the Buddha, other sections believe in something else - who has
done all these divisions?

Q: It is we, mankind.

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K: That means you.

Q: Yes, sir.

K: You have divided the world, why?

Q: We have inherited it.

K: Sir, just listen, please listen. Why have you divided?

Q: Fear and security.

K: Are you sure, what you are saying? What do you say?

Q: We divide ourselves because we derive pleasure from this division.

K: If you are also being killed by another party, is that also pleasure? You
don't..

Q: Because I want identity.

K: You want identity. Identity with what?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: No, I am asking you, identity with what? No, no, I am asking you a
question, lady, you want to be identified, don't you, to have identity. With what?

With the earth?

Q: Everyone wants to prove that I am better than the other one.

K: Quite right. Now, look, would you listen for a few minutes, sir? The world
has divided itself, right? Europe, America, Russia, India, Muslims, that's a fact.

Who has divided it? Don't make casual remarks, it is not an entertainment. I
am not here to be entertained. So if you will kindly listen, I am asking you a
question. Who has divided the world into this? Has not man done this? You
have done it because you say, I am a Hindu, or a Muslim, or Sikh, or some
other sect. Who has done all this? Man, hasn't he? Man. Man wants security,
so he says, I belong to Buddhism, that gives me identity, that gives me
strength, that gives me a sense of a place where I can stay. So what is the
basis of this? You understand my question, sir? Why do we do this? Is it for
security? Because if I lived as a Hindu in a world of Muslims, they would kick

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me around. Right? Or if I lived as a Protestant in Rome I would find it rather difficult, because Rome is the centre of Catholicism. Right? So I am saying to
you sir, if I may politely request you, who has done all this? This colossal
mess. You understand? You? Right? You have done, he has done it, and she
has done it. And what will you do about it? Just talk about it? So we will stop.

That's all. You don't want to act, you say, let's carry on.

Q: Sir, you have no intention to help us, but when we are here we find that
you help us. How does that happen?

K: Too bad! I don't want to help anybody. It's wrong to help another, except
surgically, food and so on. The speaker is not your leader. Right? He has said
it a thousand times all over Europe, America and here.

Q: You may not help us, but you make us understand things.

K: No, we are having a conversation together, in that conversation we
begin to see things clearly for ourselves. Therefore nobody is helping you, it is
a conversation.

Q: Yes, sir.

K: Sir, sir, did you hear what I said? Yes, sir, but did you hear what I said?

That the speaker is not here to help you in any way. Right sir? He is not your
guru, you are not his follower, all the speaker says is an abomination. Right
sir?

Q: Why is there so much cruelty in nature that one being has to eat another
in order to survive?

K: Is that your question, sir? A tiger lives on small things, so the big things
eat little things. And you are asking why is nature cruel.

Q: Why is there so much of cruelty in nature?

K: First of all why is there so much cruelty in human beings? Not in nature,
of course, that is natural, perhaps. Why are you so cruel? Not say, there is
cruelty in nature, why are human beings cruel?

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Q: I want to get rid of my pain and sorrow, so if anybody hurts me I also react, or respond in a similar manner.

K: Sir, have you ever considered that all human beings suffer? All human
beings in the world. Right?

Q: I suffer.

K: You are a human being, aren't you? So I am saying all human beings
suffer whether they live in Russia, America, China, India, Pakistan, wherever,
all human beings suffer. Now how do you solve that suffering?

Q: I am interested in my own suffering.

K: What are you doing about it?

Q: I have come here to be enlightened by you.

K: What shall we do together, sir? What shall we do together, together, not

I help you or you help me, what shall we do together to get rid of sorrow?

Q: I don't know.

K: Don't you really know?

Q: No.

K: Are you sure?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: Be careful answering, sir, this is a very serious question: are you sure
you don't know how to be free of fear and sorrow?

Q: Yes, sir.

K: You don't know.

Q: I don't know how to get rid of my sorrow.

K: Just a minute, just a minute. Remain in that state. Would you listen sirs?

He asked a very serious question, he said, I really don't know how to be free of
sorrow. Right? I don't know. When you say, I don't know, is it that you are
waiting to know? You understand my question, sir? I don't know but I may be

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expecting some kind of answer, therefore when I am expecting I step out of

'not knowing'.

Q: I don't understand.

Q: He says when we are expecting an answer we have moved away from
the field of 'not knowing'. And he says, stay with not knowing.

Q: What does that mean?

K: I will tell you what it means. I am not helping, I am not helping you. Sir,
that is a very serious matter when you say you are not helping me because we
have been helped for so many thousands of years. When you say, I don't
know, what does that mean? I don't know what Mars is - you know Mars, the
star - so do I work on that to find out?

Q: No, I don't.

K: Sir, I don't know what Mars is. He is an astro-physicist, I go to him to find
out what Mars is. For god's sake, sir.

Q: But I am not interested in Mars.

K: I know you are not interested in Mars, sir, nor am I, but I am taking that
as an example. I don't know what Mars is, and I go to an astro-physicist and I
say, tell me what Mars is, and he tells me Mars is various combinations of gas
and all the rest of it. And I say, that is not Mars, your description of Mars is
different from Mars. Right? So I ask you, most respectfully, when you say, I
don't know, what do you mean by that? I don't know. I am not waiting for an
answer, which may be crooked, which may be false, which may be illusory,
therefore I am not expecting. Are you in that state? I don't know.

Q: We are stunned when we remain in that state.

K: Remain in that state. I don't know how to swim the Ganga.

Q: I can't do anything about it.

K: You can't. When you don't know what is the cause of suffering, how can
it be ended when you don't know? Right sir? So remain in that state and find
out. Sir, just a minute, sir. When you put a question, you expect an answer,

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don't you? Be honest, be simple. So you expect an answer from a book, from another person, or from some philosopher. Right? Somebody to tell you the
answer. Right? Would you put a question and listen to the question? You
understand what I am saying? I put to you a question, I have forgotten what it
was. Let me think of another. Why has Karshi become so important? You
understand that question? Why has Karshi, which is this place, this land, why
do you consider it important? Answer it, sirs.

Q: Because of its ancient temples.

K: In Jerusalem, in Israel, they have found a building 8,000 years old,
would you all worship that?

Q: No.

K: Why?

Q: Because all the gurus, the priests have lived here.

K: So have they there, in Israel, priests and things - 8,000 years old, why
don't you go there and worship it?

Q: There are people there to worship.

K: You are not thinking. So when you put a question would you wait for the
question to reveal itself? You understand? I am asking you, most politely, I put
a question, I know if I can understand the question properly I will find the
answer. So the answer may be in the question. You are bored, are you, sir?

Q: Not at all.

K: Would you experiment with what I am saying? Will you really do it? That
is, if I put a question to you, don't try to find an answer but find out if you have understood the question, the depth of the question, or the superficiality of the
question, the meaninglessness of the question. Right? Would you look at the
question first, take time. Or you are ready to answer. So I am suggesting, sir, if
you put a question to the speaker, the speaker says, the question itself has
vitality, energy, not the answer, because the answer is in the question. Right?

Find out. Sir, did you hear what I have said? Have you understood what I said,

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sir? Don't be nervous. If you say, go to hell, it's all right. I am asking you a very simple fact: you ask me a question, and I say to you, in that question is the
answer. The question contains the answer.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Would you listen, sir, please. You can ask your question afterwards. Will
you do that?

Q: Yes.

K: Don't say meekly, yes. It is very important.

Q: An intelligent mind can put the right question. I feel I am not intelligent at
all so how can I ask the right question?

K: You can't! But you can find out why you are not intelligent. I can find out
why I am not intelligent. He is intelligent, I am not, why? Is intelligence
dependent on comparison? You understand sir? Sir, did you listen to my
question?

Q: Sir, many times we find an answer to our question, but we require
somebody else's approval of that answer.

K: So the answer is not important but approval of another is important?

Q: A correct answer is important therefore approval of the correct answer is
required.

K: By whom? By your friends who are equally unintelligent? By whom do
you want the approval? Public opinion? The Governor? The Prime Minister?

Or the high priests? From whom are you wanting approval? Sir, you don't think
at all, you just repeat, repeat, repeat.

Q: I want to ask another question. I remain with the statement that I don't
know, but it is tiresome.

K: Why is it tiresome?

Q: I am trying to find out.

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K: Don't try to find out. Here is a question: why has man, you, why have we made such a mess of the world? A mess of our lives, a mess of other people's
lives? You understand, sir, it is a mess, it is a confusion, why?

Q: Because..

K: Madam, would you kindly listen for a minute? I am talking to that
gentleman. Why have human beings throughout the world made such a mess
of the world? You understand, sir? Why? Don't - listen to the question, go into
the question. You understand? Have you held ever in your hand a marvellous
jewel? A priceless jewel. You look at it, don't you? You look at it, see the
intricacies of it, how beautifully it is put together, what extraordinary skill has gone into it, the silversmith must have marvellous hands. That jewel is very
important. Right? You look at it, you cherish it, you put it away and you
occasionally look at it, don't you?

Q: I want to hold it.

K: You have it in your hand, sir. For god's sake. I am saying you look at it. If
you have a marvellous picture, painted by somebody or other, and you look at
it. It's in your room, it's yours, you don't just hang it there you look at it. In the same way, if I ask you a question, look at it, listen to the question. But we are
so quick to answer it, so impatient. So I am suggesting, most respectfully, look
at it, take time, weigh it, see the beauty of the question - or it may be an utterly unimportant question. Do it, sir. Then you will find the question itself has
tremendous energy.

Q: Why do we not change?

K: Why, sir? Why don't you change?

Q: I don't know, but I don't change.

K: Are you satisfied where you are?

Q: No.

K: Then change.

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Q: I would like to ask a question. There is a teacher in a class in which some boy is naughty, in order to put it right he has to punish him. Should he go
through that exercise of punishment, which means violence?

K: What do you mean by the word 'violence'?

Q: Well...

K: Don't be quick, sir. What do you mean by violence? Hitting each other?

Would you call that violence? I hit you, you hit me back. That is a form of
violence, isn't it? A grown-up person hits his child, that is a form of violence.

Killing another is a form of violence. Harassing another - harassing, you know
what that word means - that's a form of violence. Trying to imitate another,
imitate, is a form of violence. Right? Would you agree to that? Imitate, conform
to the pattern of another, that's violence. Right, sir? Are you listening to what I am saying? So I am asking you, psychological violence and physical violence.

So how will you stop it? You, don't say the teacher, you, how will you stop it?

Have you listened to what I have said? Sir, please have the courtesy,
politeness, to listen to somebody else's question. Don't always say, keep
everybody out and just your own problems.

Q: Why is there a variety in nature?

K: Why are you bothered about nature? Why are you concerned with
nature?

Q: I am seeing the variety.

K: Don't you see the variety here?

Q: I see it, even outside.

K: What are you going to do about it?

Q: I want to know why.

K: Sir, I request you kindly to study yourself first. You understand? To know
yourself first. But you know about everything outside you, but you know
nothing about yourself. Sir, this has been an old question, sir. The Greeks

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have put it in their own way, the Egyptians, the ancient Hindus have said too: Know yourself first. Right? Will you start with that?

Q: Sir, I am always putting this question to myself, why am I in the bondage
of physical pain. I keep on asking this question but I don't get any answer.

K: You may be going to the wrong doctor. Sir, I know people who go from
doctor to doctor to doctor, they have plenty of money, so they trot around from
one doctor to another; and do you do that? Or is it psychological pain?

Q: Physical and psychological.

K: Which is important?

Q: I beg your pardon?

K: Which is the greater pain?

Q: When the physical pain is extreme surely it is the physical pain.

K: Yes, I know. But I am asking you sir, politely, to what you pain do you
give importance?

Q: I find myself...

K: You haven't answered my question. To what do you give importance?

Q: At the moment when I am suffering, I give that importance.

K: You haven't answered my question, sir, have you? I am asking you,
which is more important the physiological pain or the physical pain?

Q: What do you mean by psychological pain?

K: I will tell you. Pain of fear, pain of loneliness, pain of anxiety, pain of
sorrow and so on, all that is the psyche. Now to what do you give importance?

To the psyche or to physical pain?

Q: The psyche.

K: Do you really?

Q: Yes, sir.

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K: Are you being obstinate, sir? So if you give importance to the psychological pain who is going to be the doctor?

Q: I.

K: What do you mean 'I'? You are the pain. You are not different from 'I'.

The 'I' is made up of pain, anxiety, boredom, loneliness, fear, pleasure - all that is the 'I'.

Sir, there is a question here, sorry it is all rather messy. You don't listen to
anybody do you, why bother to listen to me.

Q: If I have understood that there is urgency to be aware all the time, why is
that I remain in that state only for a very short while during the day?

K: Because you don't understand what it means to be aware.

Sir, here is a question.

QUESTION: It's a fact that the various centres of the KFI constantly and
continuously stress and spread that they are the centre of K's teaching. So
now when we have the Buddha's teaching, Christ's teaching and

Krishnamurti's teaching, are these so-called teachings of K going to meet the
same fate as those of the Buddha and Christ?

You have understood the question? Are you bored with the question? I
don't mind. I am bored with it myself.

Sir, K has thought a great deal about the word 'teaching'. We thought of
using the word 'work' - ironworks, big building works, hydroelectric works, you
understand? So I thought work is very, very common. So we though we might
use the words 'teaching, but it is not important the word. Right? Your question
is, will the teachings of the Buddha, which nobody knows, I have asked them,
the original teachings of the Buddha nobody knows; and Christ may exist or
may not have existed. It is a tremendous problem whether he existed at all.

We have discussed with great scholars about that - I won't go into that. And
will K's teaching also disappear like the rest? You have understood the
question? Right? Right sir?

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Q: I have not said it.

K: Of course you have not said it; somebody has written it, therefore it is
interesting. The questioner says - probably you also think - that when K goes,
as he must go, what will happen to the teaching? Will it go like the Buddha's
teaching, which is corrupt, you know what is happening, will the same fate
await your teaching? You have understood? It depends upon you. Right? Not
upon somebody else, it depends upon you: how you live it, how you think
about it, what it means to you. If it means nothing except words then it will go
the way of the rest. Right? If it means something very deep to you, to you
personally, then it won't be corrupted. Right? You understand sir? It won't be
corrupted. So it's up to you, not up to the centres and information centres and
all the rest of that business. It depends upon you, whether you live the
teachings, or not.

Q: Has the truth its own power?

K: It has, if you let it alone.

Q: Sir, that question was put by me. May I clarify the question - what I
mean by that?

K: Go ahead, what is the question?

Q: Now, my question is this: you have so many times repeated for 70 years
that you do not convince anybody of anything, you are not a teacher, you do
not teach anything to anybody. Now I say that the centres of the KFI - whose
president you are, while you are still living - they invite the public, 'Come here, here are the teachings of Krishnamurti; and you study here what he has to
say. He has discovered so many things. Please come here and try to study.'

You say you work as a mirror, when I use the mirror, does the mirror help me?

It does help me, the light is helping me. Are these things not your teachings?

So there is no harm if you say you are a teacher because you are teaching
something, you are clearing something. You yourself say that you work as a
mirror; anything which works as a mirror is definitely helping me.

K: Yes, sir.

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Q: That is my question.

K: So, what is the question? Sir, in all his talks K has emphasized the fact
that he is merely a mirror. Right sir? That he is merely a mirror reflecting what
your life is. Right? And he has also said you can break up that mirror if you
have seen yourself very clearly. The mirror is not important. But what has
happened throughout the world? They all want to be on the band-wagon. You
know what that word means? All want to share in the circus.

So I say, please don't bother, just listen to the teaching; if somebody wants
to form a little centre in Gujarat, let him do it, but he has no power to say that
he represents K, that is a follower. He can say anything he likes, he is free to
do what he likes. We are not imposing on anybody that they should do this, do
that. Say, for instance, he starts, buys videos and all the rest of it and collects a few friends in his house. That is his affair. We are not saying, 'Don't do this,
do that'. If anybody did that, I would say, 'Sorry, do not do it'. But they like to do it, they like to be interpreters, gurus in their little way. You know the game you
all play. So if you want to do that, you are perfectly welcome to do it. But the

Foundation - unfortunately I happen to belong to it, or fortunately - the

Foundation says you are free to do what you like. You understand, sir? But
books, read books, burn books of K, do anything you like. It is your hands. If
you want to live it, live it; if you don't want to live it, it is all right, it is your business. Is this clear once and for all? That the Foundation has no authority
over your life, to tell you what to do, or what not to do. Or to say, this is the centre from which all radiation goes, like a radio station or a television station, we are not that. All that we are saying is, here is something, it may be original,
may be not original, here is something for you to look at. Take time to read it,
take time to understand it. If you are not interested just throw it away. It doesn't matter. You have wasted 25 rupees, that's all. But if you like to live that way,
live it; if you don't, just drop it. Don't make a lot of noise around it. You
understand what I am saying, sir? Don't make a circus about it, a song and
dance about it, that I have understood and you haven't, I'll tell you all about it.

You understand what I say sir?

173

So it is time to stop. Now, if I may ask, what have you got out of this mornings' talk, discussion? Nothing or something?

Q: I am looking at the question" I understood the question but the thinking
stops.

K: Good! I am just asking, sir, what have you all got out of it, what has
flowered in you after this morning? Like a flower blooms overnight, what has
bloomed in you? What has come out of you?

Q: That we should have the habit of thinking together.

K: Did you really think together?

Q: Yes, I did.

K: Together, you and I - or you were talking to yourself?

Q: I was talking to myself also.

K: Sir, you don't have to tell the speaker anything. I am just asking, politely,
if I may: we have met for over an hour, talked together, said many things
according to our opinions, at the end of the journey of this morning, where are
you? Where we started? Where we ended? Or is there a new flowering?

That's all sir. I am not going to say, oh, you haven't, or you have. That would
be impudence on my part. Right sir.

May we get up presently?

174

Document Outline

- Content

- Discussion With Buddhists, Varanasi

- Chapter 1 1st Discussion
- Chapter 2 2nd Discussion
- Chapter 3 3rd Discussion

- Varanasi 1985

- Chapter 4 1st Public Talk
- Chapter 5 1985 2nd Public Talk
- Chapter 6 3rd Public Talk

- Chapter 7 Discussion With The Campers Varanasi

- Rishi Valley 1985

- Chapter 8 2nd Dialogue With Teachers

- Chapter 9 3rd Dialogue With Teachers

- Madras 1986

- Chapter 10 2nd Public Talk

- Chapter 11 3rd Public Talk

- Longer, Unedited Versions

- Chapter 4
- Chapter 5
- Chapter 6
- Chapter 7

Table of Contents

- Content

- Discussion With Buddhists, Varanasi

- Chapter 1 1st Discussion
- Chapter 2 2nd Discussion
- Chapter 3 3rd Discussion

- Varanasi 1985

- Chapter 4 1st Public Talk
- Chapter 5 1985 2nd Public Talk
- Chapter 6 3rd Public Talk

- Chapter 7 Discussion With The Campers Varanasi

- Rishi Valley 1985

- Chapter 8 2nd Dialogue With Teachers

- Chapter 9 3rd Dialogue With Teachers

- Madras 1986

- Chapter 10 2nd Public Talk

- Chapter 11 3rd Public Talk

- Longer, Unedited Versions

- Chapter 4
- Chapter 5
- Chapter 6
- Chapter 7